Some of you have asked whether or not any reporters from the official LCMS periodicals were there interviewing those of us at the first-ever public demonstration at synodical headquarters.
No. And I wouldn’t expect the official synodical publications to inform their readers what happened today.
However, two synodical employees did come out to record who was at the protest by taking pictures of us. As they returned to the building, I heard the one say, “Did you get what you needed?” The other responded, “I think so.”
The funny thing is that those of us who support Issues, Etc. aren’t ashamed of it. We all signed our names to a petition. We put our hometowns and congregations down as well. We even included comments. None of us are denying that we were there — there we stood! And since the vast majority of us were laypeople, it’s not like they can threaten us like they can the pastors or other members of synod.
While the International Center was in lockdown, while employees at General Services patrolled the outer perimeter, while they put up blockades inside the building (in preparation for what, exactly? We’re Lutherans — we don’t storm buildings!) and told employees not to leave or talk to the press — there we were outside, peacefully asking the one thing that they have been unable to answer: Why? No amount of institutional lockdown can keep us from persisting in asking that question.
Why? Why? Why?
Filed under: Updates
And I wouldn’t expect the official synodical publications to inform their readers what happened today.”
Oh, too bad. I was looking forward to reading all about the demonstration festivities in the Witless and the Distorter.
Way to stand up for what is right with peace and dignity.
When you do not have the truth on your side then you fear any question that could lead to your undoing. The employees could give out an answere that may lead to more questions so they had to muzzle them. They fear a storm of truth that could fly in their face. So they had to have the building patrolled and blockades put up to keep the truth inside. When truth is supressed the more likely it will come out. By their action people will ask more question because they know something is being supressed. If they had the truth on their side they would not care who came into the building.
Recently, there was a website (www.lcmswatch.org) that said this:
“Where we burn heretics, not churches.”
The website no longer carries such a statement. But, if I worked at the Synodical headquarters I would have urged the calling in of extra security during the protest to handle potential terrorist activities. I would have also been sure to take pictures of the participants and kept a file in case of potential violence or vandalism.
… and then, Presbyter, you could run and hid behind your mommy’s skirt.
Presbyter:
If you’re hot a heretic, you have nothing to fear.
So fear not the website.
Terrorist activities my aunt fannie.
Presbyter,
You gotta be kidding, right??? I hope you aren’t truly that dim.
I must confess that the image of a bunch of confessional clergy (in the collars) and laymen running amok is one of the more amusing ones to be presented in a while.
Really though, those who are honorable in their deeds, or in fact those who have repented, have no fear of the truth (unless, I suppose, their deeds include drawings of Mohammed). A bunker mentality is one that is most distressing to find in the leadership of one’s Synod.
The website (www.lcmswatch.org) said this:
“Where we burn heretics, not churches.” That sure sounds like a potential threat to violence to me. When I first saw it, it may me sick to my stomach. It was downright scary and frightening. It sounded like a death threat aimed at all those the website owners disagreed with. I wondered about the security of Synodical President. Oh, sure it could be metaphorical, but why take chances? We are living in dangerous times where even so-called “conservative” Lutherans are capable of violent anti-social activities. The folks at the Synodical headquarters had every legitimate reason to be on the cautious side during this protest activity. This blog is slanderous to think otherwise.
Still, it would be nice if they’d call once in a while. Or personally answer emails and letters and phone calls(and questions), but, granted, whilst safely installed behind barricades.
A Might Fortress, indeed.
Presbyter,
You’re kidding, right?
Please tell me you’re kidding.
I went to the website http://www.lcmswatch.org. As far as I can tell, there is absolutely nothing to connect this site to anyone. Therefore they can say anything with impunity. It could also be a plant site, that is, people saying things to make those upset about the cancellation of Issues Etc look bad. It could be all sorts of things, since no one is acknowledging they run the site.
But to try to draw a connection between this crackpot site & the people who peacefully protested, & made their intentions known well in advance, seems to be a huge leap in reasoning. And a sinful one at that. No one calling for the demonstration asked for Kieschnick to meet personally with them or anyone else from the IC, as far as I can tell. They simply want some honest answers to some troubling questions.
There were death threats made, on both sides, during the Yankee Stadium controversy a few years ago. A few years back, I recall a Lutheran church that had poison put in their coffee on Sunday morning by a member of the church. Another Lutheran church had a mass murderer who was active as a member. There are dangerous people, even in the Lutheran church.
Again, the folks at the Synodical headquarters had every legitimate reason to be on the cautious side during this protest activity. It is best to be on the cautious side.
Well, there’s cautious and then there’s paranoid.
And there’s borderline defamation.
Caution works for everybody, presbyter, in what we do and say.
Did you take waddams stapler by any chance?
The way things have been going it would not suprise me that they would set up a plant site to make us all look bad. Any one can set up a site and if they could make us all look like crackpots that would help get the bad light off them.
Dr. Kieschnick has a professional paid bodyguard at synodical conventions. I’m not kidding. How much does that cost?
I guess paranoia is heightened awareness.
Unbelievable.
Presbyter,
Excuse me, I believe you have my stapler.
My only response to the “necessary” barricading of the building is this.
We wouldn’t have been there had they just answered the questions we’ve asked.
If we hadn’t been there, they wouldn’t have needed to barricade themselves in.
So call it what you want: paranoia, or heightened awareness, or whatever. Regardless, it’s of their own doing.
[...] shown up on the Post-Dispatch web site nor its Civil Religion blog as of this post. Augsburg1530 reports that two synodical employees came out to take names of the people at the vigil, but nobody appeared [...]
I don’t get the International Center. Every day it eats at me more and more. What’s the deal? Why the secrecy? What are people supposed to take from the silence and odd behavior? Why no response? This behavior would not stand (as The Dude would say) in a congregation and if definitely does not stand as a synodwide action. This will not stand. This aggression will not stand, man.
and regarding the topic of “terrorism” bought up by “Presbyter”: really?!? honestly? seriously? dude…
Sorry, that’s as profound as I can be.
—
Merciful Lord, grant to Your Church singleness of purpose, that throughout this crisis all we do and say will point to Your dear Son and the forgiveness He has won for all people…through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Amen.
(via LCMS website: Prayers During a Time of War)
“The 7000 are less than one third of one percent”
My goodness, how numbers-oriented can the bureaucrats be?
And the employees who came out and photographed protestors? How very Scientology of the “church”!!
(See xenu.net for more on that.)
My thanks to those who stood in the cold today. God is with us all.
The fact that they put up blockades, leaves me to fully think, the Purple Palace People are absolutely, %100 out-of-touch with reality.
They have no idea who their fellow Lutherans are. It is pathetic.
The sooner this system is changed, the better.
Maybe they read this one and didn’t notice it was satire:
Midwest Lutherans Largely Reject Violence
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2007/05/midwest_luthera.html
it’s a hilarious read.
But seriously, this battening down the hatches for an ‘invasion’ or ‘exorcist’ is typical of how the powers that be respond to purpose driven resisters. It’s part of their process for insulating themselves from criticism. They REALLY want to make sure you don’t have access, I guess. Can’t be asking any unwanted questions!
All this behavior gives you a pretty clear answer. They don’t care.
Frankly, THEY are the resisters that need removing.
Isn’t the IC synodical property? And aren’t pastors members of the synod & aren’t laity members of congregations, which are members of synod? Wouldn’t any of those protesters have a perfect right to walk right into the IC & ask for an appt with David Strand or President Kieschnick or some other flunky? What’s this business of trying to keep out legal members of the synod from property that their congregations pay to support?
When I was in seminary, a couple of friends & I, on a lark, went over to the IC when Barry was president. We asked if we could see him. We had no appt, no official reason to be there, but they checked & said he had a few minutes available. So, we ended up speaking, not only with Pres. Barry but also August Mennicke, who was 1st VP at the time, & Paul McCain, Barry’s assistant. Not for very long & not about anything important or even related very much to the synod; just pleasantries. I think someone even gave us a tour of the IC.
I doubt very much that something like that could happen nowadays.
“The fact that they put up blockades, leaves me to fully think, the Purple Palace People are absolutely, %100 out-of-touch with reality.”
No, the protesters are out of touch with reality to think that they would be perceived as anything other than a potentially violent mob that could turn dangerous at the drop of a hat. Saying things like “We burn heretics” on a website sounds pretty scary and dangerous to me. How many “death threats” were received by the President and his staff, I don’t know. But, in the past there were “death threats,” so the Synodical response was very justified.
WOW. Wow. Wow.
“a potentially violent mob that could turn dangerous at the drop of a hat.”
That is HILARIOUS. Like, seriously insane — but hilarious.
I arrived at the IC at 9:00 am yesterday morning because I didn’t know the parking situation. I had need of a powder room visit by about 10:00 so I walked into the IC building as I had done on a number of previous visits and signed my name on their list of visitors. I told the receptionist I had to use the restroom which was about 25 feet from where I was standing. She asked if I was one of the protesters. I said “No, I am here for the demonstration”. She asked again if I was going to protest in front of the building. I said “No, I am here for the demonstration and I am in need of a restroom.” She became nearly disoriented (not an exaggeration) and flustered and I finally told her I wanted to use the restroom and I just proceeded on. What in the world had they been told to expect? This was bizarre. It would have been nice if someone from the IC had come out to acknowledge that we were there and ask if a representative could come in to speak with Kieschnick or Strand. As a member of the 1/3 of 1%, I do not intend to keep silent about this. Maybe LCMS could use the money it is saving on Todd and Jeff and provide computers for all those people who could not sign the online petition because they did not have one.
Presbyter’s comments are satire, right? Right?
Hi Presbyter. My name is Susan Robbins. I’m from Tupelo, MS.
I’d have been there yesterday if I could have.
I’d have left my guns, IED’s, etc. at home. I promise.
So, now it’s your turn. Is Presbyter your first or last name?
“Saying things like “We burn heretics” on a website sounds pretty scary and dangerous to me. How many “death threats” were received by the President and his staff..”
So, is there any proof that any of those people protesting said, “We burn heretics?” Any proof that they made death threats? Any proof that they were going to turn into a raving mob at the drop of a hat? Kind of quid pro quo logic, isn’t it? Nice way to dismiss anything these protesters might be saying or to dismiss their valid complaints.
So, in the face of this “potentially” violent mob, the security procedures were to put up some blockades & take pictures of the protesters? Why not have the riot police there? Why not have snipers on the roof? Why even let them in the IC parking lot? Why not have the sheriff or police meet them at the entrance to the IC & say, “No protesters allowed?”
The IC knew in advance of this protest. The fact that all they did was put up a few useless, in the event of a real riot, blockades & take some pictures indicates they must not have thought this a real threatening situation.
Oh, & why not have a helicopter standing by to ferry away Pres. Kieschnick & other high ranking big wigs in the event of a riot?
>here were death threats made, on both sides, during the Yankee Stadium controversy a few years ago.
I have a hard time believing this. People interpret EVERYTHING as death threats. I had my pastor suggest to someone else over lunch that I was holding a gun to his head when I drew a line in the sand over his purpose driven agenda. Give me a break.
No, the protesters are out of touch with reality to think that they would be perceived as anything other than a potentially violent mob that could turn dangerous at the drop of a hat.
What a laugh. You are tiresome. Paranoid librulls always interpret any disagreement as threatening so I’m not surprised.
Presbyter has to be a plant, I mean, honestly. Did you read the sermon that was preached when people dangerously gathered in a violent bratwurst dinner and prayed? (I bet they were loud.) They had every option to condemn people for their actions in the leadership, but instead chose to preach Christ and Him crucified.
And when 75 quiet, gentle, bratwurst eating Lutherans quietly prayed, sang hymns and held signs simply asking Why? not a single person blew up anything. I think the Purple Palace should be thanking God that they escaped with their lives (just barely) from this violent hate group.
These were people who started an online peteition, a blog, sent e-mails and phonecalls, let everyone know in advance and even decided to not shout and make a nuisance of themselves but to proclaim Christ in their actions in quiet unity of purpose.
Claiming that these people are behind lcmswatch.org is ridiculous, and there is just no evidence that this would turn ugly, and it didn’t. I have not heard of photographs being taken of protesters except when outside Scientology buildings. Is this what we have descended to.
God bless you all, and what you did on that day. It was a defining moment for my faith. You gathered quietly and prayed, you proclaimed Christ and Him crucified instead of political rhetoric from the pulpit, you quietly, but boldly confessed.
This is what Christinity in modern protest should be all about, not “God hates F–s!”, but “Jesus died for you.” Wow!
The powers that be could have saved themselves a lot of bad publicity. All they had to do was to invite the protesters in to visit over dough nuts and coffee.
Maybe their smooth operating machine is losing its touch.
The comment comparing the behavior of IC to Scientology sends chills up my spine.
“The powers that be could have saved themselves a lot of bad publicity. All they had to do was to invite the protesters in to visit over dough nuts and coffee.”
Just don’t drink the Kieschnick Kool-Aid!
QM said, “Presbyter has to be a plant….”
Potted, maybe?
Again, “Did you read the sermon that was preached when people dangerously gathered in a violent bratwurst dinner….”
Someone could have been gassed.
And again, “…and prayed? (I bet they were loud.)”
Only after the brats were consumed.
Give the people at the International Center a break! After all, it is a place of employment, akin to a business, where many people carry on their assigned duties. Now, when some group comes to ‘protest’ or ‘demonstrate’, one does not know what will happen. . . ..even perhaps from some one irate person who may take matters a bit too far. It happens. It happens in the best intended groups. So, protecting one’s employees is important. Keeping employee contact to a minimum defuses situations and avoids words which may fly back and forth. Some employee may lash out because a demonstration makes their job a bit toughter to handle, and that may escalate.
As to the silence ordered to employees, that is a smart practice because if any employee had said something, someone (media, for example) may take it as an ‘official word’ of the staff or even Synod. Look at how the alleged stray comment ‘did you get what you needed’ is being interpreted as some conspiratorial act for future retribution. It could have been done at the request of the insurance carrier in case of damage or even injury (twisting an ankle on the grass, for example) where a claim might be filed. Or maybe the Synod lawyers (Mrs. Strand, for one) suggested it.
BTW, the Center is a private building, not a public one, so use of the restroom is not a matter of right. Again, a receptionist would have no idea who you are or your intentions. Building security is always a concern. Those matter are likely decided by the operations manager for the building, not by some Synod officer.
Personally, if I ran Synod, I would have provided free coffee to the demonstrators. If I were the Sy Prez, I would have probably stepped out and at least said ‘hello’, take the heat a bit, but show care. Obviously, though, I do not run Synod and am not contacted for advice.
Anon,
No, you do not run the Synod.
But thanks for sharing.
Sorry Anon, but public or private has nothing to do with nature’ s call for crying out loud. And it really is none of your business why I needed a restroom. Would a Christian refuse another Christian? If I was there to buy a book or something, would that have made my need to relieve myself more legitimate? This is not a political issue revolving around “rights”. I guess if I had thrown up all over the desk that would have validated my claim to need a restroom? At least most of us have the good manners to not hide under anonymity. If you are going to accuse have the decency to own up to your comments.
Is Anonymous your first or last name?
Susan Robbins
Presbyter, for what it’s worth, has posted under the names Presbyter (four times), JMK and Jack (according to his IP account).
However, I sort of thought he sounded just like Matt Staneck (who posts under the name ValpoStaneck on the ALPB forum). Matt is sort of a one-man marching band in defense of President Kieschnick and other confessionally-challenged members of Synod. He has repeated this “burning heretics” line more times than I can count on the Facebook and ALPB forums.
Herbert Hoover did *not* go out to meet the WWI vets who marched on Washington. Called out the troops to disburse them, I think. FDR (and I am no fan of his, to be sure) sent out coffee.
As to 7000 as a tiny minority of synod? –one tenth of that would be sufficient to turn Pres. Kieschnick out of office.
When someone points out how small a number is of those who are against him, it suggests that the number is not nearly small enough for his comfort.
Fwiw, I seem to recall there being some discussion about the bodyguard thing, and that it’s been relatively normal practice for some time (back into Barry’s days, at least). If anyone has specific knowledge in this regard, it would be helpful.
As to the poison in the coffee–Please give specifics and evidences–otherwise I have a hard time believing it (though I do *not* dismiss its possibility). Just like I wouldn’t really want to believe what I heard (I have to battle my sinful flesh on it!)–that when the news came from FL that Al Barry had died, there was cheering heard in some locations within the IC. You see the problem? A rumor thrown out there, completely unverified and unverifiable, and therefore “immortal.”
Now, there are certain to be some legitimate security concerns, since the IC is located in Kirkwood & the area was shaken by the city council shootings only a few short months back.
But you’d think more effective security measures would be in place, other than some blockades & picture taking. And this nonsense of throwing out hysterical & unproven & unprovable threats goes way beyond a legitimate concern for security.
Besides, this demonstration wouldn’t have been necessary if Strand & Kieschnick had put out honest answers to begin with instead of bureaucrat speak & numbers fiddling.
Oh, yeah, one more thing.
“The decision was economic, not political.” That statement is telling, in itself.
The thought that the decision might have been made on fundamentally theological/doctrinal grounds never even occurred to Strand.
*This* is precisely what we’ve been saying–everything *but* doctrine is considered at the IC these days.
They just don’ t get it.
If Presbyter is referring to the Lutheran mass murderer BTK, that dude was ELCA. The LCMS mass murderers are rarely active in their churches.
What? Free bratwurst was served at a parking lot bbq at the LCMS headquarters in St. Louis and only drew a crowd of about 75. Next time add in some beer and triple the crowd. Make it a real party! President Kieschnick and a few others to come out a share a brat and brew with you. Pass the mustard please.
The Swedish Lutheran poisened pot luck was also ELCA. Violence may be part of ELCA culture but in the LCMS we have a culture of life.
The purple palace is starting to remind me of one of those compounds you hear about in the news that the FBI storms. What kind of Kool Aid are they drinking in there anyway?
Purple Palace didn’t used to be like this. But maybe it should never have been built in the first place. I was last there in 1997 with Apple of His Eye. Rev Al Barry would have come out to visit with the protestors. He did indeed personally pick up a telephone to speak directly with irate Jewish protestors. What are the chances of talking to Jerry direct on the phone now? You used to be able to walk into the IC and look around in the cool library. So it’s this secretive (locked doors, financial statements, etc) and closed now huh? sad. Is somebody in there afraid of death and to cowardly to stand up for any principles (like maybe an oath of faithfulness to death)? Here I stand…er hm…Here I hide.
Anyone noticed that since someone brought up the idea that Presbyter might be a plant he/she/it has disappeared?
Steve,
Perhaps “Presbyter” is busy and will rejoin us later.
Jesus said, “I taught openly in the Temple…” “I lay my life down for the sheep…”
Luther said, “Here I stand, I can do no other.”
Jerry has “No Comment…” rather, his spokesperson has no comment…