Brandon Booth
MollieAnother firing
Rev. Dr. Martin Noland has been fired from Concordia Historical Institute. This is the Synod’s archives and history office. More details to come.
IMPORTANT UPDATE: Officially speaking, Dr. Noland offered his resignation to the board. Also, there is no indication that this was anything “bigger” than a board-motivated action.
UPDATE: Based on my reporting today, I can share the following additional information. The CHI board asked Dr. Noland to resign. Since he serves at their pleasure, he resigned.
The only reason really given was that CHI is short of unrestricted money and needs to make cuts. In the board’s opinion, Noland’s position would be the easiest to have vacant for an extended period of time. The board plans to fill the position with a “volunteer” for the time being. These discussions took place in executive session.
I also hear that Noland had been urging his board to allow him to be more aggressive with development, but that they had resisted. Having said all that, it looks like an agreement was reached between the parties.
Dr. Noland is a very smart and affable man and would be an excellent addition to a faculty and a wonderful parish pastor. I have no doubt that he will be scooped up in no time.
In the meantime, I think we should pay careful attention to what happens at CHI. I believe that a pastor should head up the Institute since there are so many subtle and complex theological questions in the papers and archives of the LCMS.
Filed under: Updates
Makes you wonder how long before someone like Matthew Harrison will be on the chopping block
Waiting for details. WHO fired him? As far as I know only the Board of Directors of CHI has that authority. (Of course we thought that the BCS had authority over Issues, Etc. didn’t we?)
Fired by the CHI board, I hear.
Sad, sad, sad. I’ve known Marty for a long time. Excellent theologian, excellent historian, dedicated pastor. Apparently just what the “not your grandrfather’s synod” doesn’t need anymore. (And he’s not even an OLD white man!) Who’s readying the lifeboats? I’m about ready to go over the side.
The important thing is that whomever has the history can write the story. Since Dr. Noland has the history (ALL of it) he knows what is actually going on.
“Paranoia” must be very careful with who has that data.
besides, Mr. JesusFirst / Daystar is still his first assistant, isn’t he?
by the way - - one of he most disappointing moments of my life was when my adult son transferred out of the church where I was the pastor - to Dr. Noland’s church.
I was ‘disappointed’ in him that I think I popped all of the buttons on my shirt.
One of my good churchman asked me if my son had found a good pastor. My reply: “the best”.
Now, some 10 years later (a historian will correct the number, of course) my son still refers to him as “Pastor Noland” - and when I see Dr. Noland he’ll often tell me some details about my son that I wasn’t aware of. “I hear that your son is heading back to Iraq sometime soon?” Hmmm - - first I’ve heard about it. (by the way - not an actual incident - but not too far off!)
I hope that Dr. Noland was aware that JesusFirst would be after his “Call” soon.
The battle lines are being drawn. The confessional Lutherans are going to have to decide what in the LCMS is worth fighting for.
BJS should snap him up pronto.
BJS?
The attack on confessional Lutherans is well underway in the LCMS. Those in control of Synod seem to be in a slash and burn mode. They are cutting off confessional Lutherans by firing them, and then setting their institutions ablaze in attempt to destroy all memory and evidence of them.
Confessional Lutherans must decide what in this Synod can be rescued and how to go about rallying the troops in order to defend those things. Christ will be faithful in giving us His Word and Sacrament. We can go forward and do His bidding.
BJS=The Brotherhood of John the Steadfast.
http://laymenetc.typepad.com/
Check them out.
Join up. Promises to be another worthy confessional endeavor, operating of necessity out from under Synod’s umbrella (under which it seems to rain constantly).
Another extra-Synod org, doing the work the powerful won’t do.
Let’s just fire everyone who was ever a guest on Issues, Etc.
What’s going on in St Looie anyway?
Who are the current members of the CHI Board of Governors?
Carl-
Info is here: http://chi.lcms.org/staff.html
According to the CHI website, the Board of Governors held a regular meeting last Friday (May 9). http://chi.lcms.org/events.asp
WHAT?!
Rev. Dr. Martin Noland?
I’m stunned, again.
Don’t fret toomuch what is going to happen to lcms re-member they need many green backs and the happenings just make people a little more irate and more axes to grind.
I assume May 9 was the first board meeting since Mrs. Gladys Suelflow-Krause entered her eternal rest?
Who was appointed (elected?) to replace her?
I think we can see the pattern playing itself out. The only problem was that they made a mistake with firing of Todd Wilken. They didn’t realize the firestorm that would cause. They thought Wilken was a small fry who didn’t have that much following. Rev. May and Rev. Noland are the kind of firings that would have slipped under the radar without the Wilken firing. There will be a number of less popular/secure people fired in the coming weeks, I’m guessing. They’re getting their ducks in a row first before going after the big names. I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m planning on watching closely come August which is a traditional time for big firings.
“The attack on confessional Lutherans is well underway in the LCMS. Those in control of Synod seem to be in a slash and burn mode. They are cutting off confessional Lutherans by firing them, and then setting their institutions ablaze in attempt to destroy all memory and evidence of them.”
It is terrifiying how much the church resembles Orwell’s 1984. In the name of “love of Jesus” good men are losing their jobs left and right. Why is Satan doing this to the LCMS? Why are we being punished like this?
There is not a shred of evidence that this was a politically motivated purge. Rather, considering the dire financial straits that the LCMS is in, this is clearly one of many cuts that are probably going to have to be made in the next few weeks.
Rev. Noland has done nothing controversial during the last year to tick off others in the Synod. Prior to the last convention, he asked Christian News that his former writings critiquing the Church Growth movement, not be published. So, I don’t believe all this negative conspiracy theory junk.
“There is not a shred of evidence that this was a politically motivated purge. Rather, considering the dire financial straits that the LCMS is in”, blah blah blah
We don’t have a “shred of evidence” that synod is really in “dire financial straits”. The evidence put out after Issues Etc. was not convincing or complete.
We have money for outside non Lutheran contractors, but not for (what should be) our own concerns.
If we’re short, it’s because people don’t trust St Louis to spend the money where they say they will. Given the “line of credit” for Ablaze from two other accounts which sell themselves as doing something else with the money, I should say that’s justified.
I got out of CEF when they sponsored an ecumenical meet in MPLS financially. (That sort of thing earns no interest.) They told me “that’s where the market is”. Fine, “the market” they ran after should be solving the money problems of synod.
As usual the libs want to run the show and they want the conservatives to foot the bill. Big wail because the “oldies” have finally begun to wake up to it.
John,
How is firing him going to save money?
What we also need to watch for is what happens to Larry Rast. He is among the stalwarts.
“If we’re short, it’s because people don’t trust St Louis to spend the money where they say they will. Given the “line of credit” for Ablaze from two other accounts which sell themselves as doing something else with the money, I should say that’s justified.”
Is this proven? If so then we have a lot to be mad about. The overriding question is did the synod authorize this? How come Keischnick is held above reproach?
Anon, this is why I have been telling people if they’ve donated to support Issues, Etc., or Rev. May, they should be asking to the state attorney general’s office to investigate where the money went. Then we will all know what’s been going on.
I’ve donated to Issues, Etc by credit card. The credit card statement says something like LC Foundation. I forget what the exact acronym was in front. I’ll have to review it.
John,
What evidence has been presented to prove that the LCMS is in dire financial straits?
Is an itemized budget of the LCMS available? I would like to see it. But does anyone have the nerve to call the attorney general’s office? I’m afraid of Kieschnick. It’s sad when we’re afraid of a “pastor” but he is definitely scary.
Anon, this is why it is crucial for lay people to do this. There is nothing he can do against a lay person.
It may not have been financial after all. The important thing to note is what is given as an update:
“Officially speaking, Dr. Noland offered his resignation to the board. Also, there is no indication that this was anything “bigger” than a board-motivated action.”
That’s it. End of story. There is nothing to be concerned about. The 8th Commandment requires us to interpret this in the kindest possible way and put the best construction on it as well.
John,
There is nothing to be concerned about? I think there’s a heck of a lot to be concerned about.
We should ALWAYS interpret everything in a manner that puts the best construction on people’s actions, but there’s a lot to be concerned about.
I just want to make sure people are given the most up-to-date information available.
So how did this go down? You can’t fire me, I quit?
Interested readers may want to know that “John” has been using this blog to pooh-pooh many actions against confessional men. He has previously posted under the names “Presbyter,” “JMK” and “Jack.” Just fyi.
It is amazing how when the truth comes out, that all this is about is a simple resignation, the worst possible interpretation put on the event. The 8th Commandment is constantly being trashed on this site and this is one more glaring example.
If you don’t like our Synod (LCMS) than you should just leave and join some other denomination. Life on this earth is too short to spend time bashing each other. The Great Commission is at stake. So, just don’t make any more excuses, go and leave us alone.
Is there any reason to believe the resignation was forced? i.e. that he would have been fired if he had not resigned?
Eric,
Yes.
So, John, when further proof is provided that his resignation was not a resignation but just a concealed firing, how will you defend this action by Kieschnick and pals?
Mollie, will this be coming on the blog? i.e. that the resignation was forced? I mean , will there be no doubt through some confirmation that it was so that other will know if we send them to this site? I wonder if
Dr. Noland was asked to sign a confidentiality agreement as well?
A rotten kettle of fish once again…I hope there will be some documentation tho Mollie that this is a fact so others such as John cannot say it was a ’simple resignation’ at Dr. Noland’s initiation!!
Eric,
That’s not putting the best construction on things. We do not know anything yet about why this happened. Let’s try to find out.
To say that Dr. Noland was forced into resigning is to put the “worst construction” on what happened. Now, if he comes out and says it himself, than it is a different matter, isn’t it?
John/Presbyter/JMK/Jack,
I’m simply reporting what happened. It’s not the worst construction. Perhaps it happened for good reasons. Perhaps it happened for bad. We don’t know.
The greatest sin against the 8th commandment I see in the Synod today is that those who disagree for weighty reasons with the wisdom of particular synodical programs (or “movements”) are condemned as being opposed to missions or hindering the Great Commission.
Those who are committed to going and preaching the Gospel in its truth and purity are right to be concerned when a man who has manifested his commitment is no longer in the position of public responsibility to which he had been called.
With respect, John,
I also would like to know more before jumping to conclusions, as you caution. However, Mollie has time and again proved to me a reliable source, and I trust her information for now.
It seems to me that the 8th Commandment may be just a big “Get Out of Jail Free” card lately, so it’s little wonder that many Lutherans are jumping to conclusions before checking to see if they’ll even hit terra firma when they land.
It is not our Synod we don’t like, as you seem to think, but the way things appear to be done without regard to openness, honesty, integrity, and–in some cases–orthodoxy. Truth is still truth, and error is still error, no matter whether we struggle against each other in the LCMS or simply part ways altogether.
And I have to say, your call for us to “go and leave us alone” reminds me of a similar call from Holy Scripture: “Let his blood be upon us, and upon our children.”
John,
Yes, it is sinful human nature to think that the resignation was forced. I am guilty too. However, in light of the recent acts of our synodical leadership, I am finding it increasingly difficult to give them the benefit of the doubt. I will wait on this issue to see what FACTS come out. But, am I suspicious? - YES. Especially, when our leadership have misused the 8th and 4th commandment to cover for their lies.
There is no good reason to believe that Dr. Noland would have been fired if he had not resigned. That is what is most important to highlight.
Dr. Noland could have offered his resignation for any number of reasons. There is no need to speculate about some big conspiracy. For example, maybe he was concerned for the financial stability of CHI and offered his resignation as a way to support the organization? Perhaps he wanted a raise and they were not able or willing to give it? We can speculate over a dozen different reasons. There is no need to post idle speculations that put the worst construction on our Synod’s current leadership.
Here’s what’s going on — looking at the big picture –
This from an Anglican brother who posted on another blog –
I think it is time for my faithful brethren in the LCMS to realize that their church is in the process of selling itself out to the world. Yes, they may not follow the quasi-Marxist agenda of the ELCA, but then they are selling themselves out at a different time. Marx is so 1970s and all that - this is the age of unbridled consumerism and debt.
The new motto of the LCMS should be “let’s sin so the grace may abound”. Unlike the radicals of a generation ago, they don’t deny that Jesus is God and capable of saving us, they just don’t think they are much in need of saving in the classical sense of blood atonement and hanging on crosses and that gory stuff.
Their Jesus is a crossless risen Christ (who apparently rose from a bad self-image) who seeks to empower the faithful to where “WWJD” bracelets, have their daughters make chastity vows to their fathers (and how creepy is that?), and sing “praise songs” where Jesus is made to sound like the object of a schoolgirls crush.
They are “second half of the Psalm” Christians, who like all the praising but skip the part where God saves his people from despair and gives them a reason to praise Him in the first place. The result is that without the reason why God is worthy to be praised, the Gospel is all law.
Think about it - the flaws in your innermost being that become obvious when you try to lead your new “victorious life in Christ” now has no recourse to the cross because you don’t have a clue why Christ ended up there! Instead of freeing you and filling your soul with joy, you are reduced to despair.
I’m not a Lutheran but I am part of a similar enough tradition (traditional Anglican - another vanishing breed) to see what’s going on there. Any church with roots in the historic liturgy that has as it’s new catchphrase “This is not your grandfather’s church” is at most one generation away from apostasy. Trust me- I’ve been there, done that.
To interpret something in “the best possible light” requires that there be some light. The less light is available, the less ‘best construction’ is possible. Those who deliberately withhold or obfuscate what should be revealed are cultivating fear and inviting speculation. I’ll be a lot more impressed with their 8th commandment arguments when they come clean. There have been real documented incidents of withheld information and obfuscation. The 8th commandment does not require us to pretend they haven’t occurred. This significantly lowers the standard for ‘best possible’.
John,
The problem with that line is that the 8th commandment goes both ways. You begin to say that there could be any number of reasons why Rev. Noland would resign, clearly not knowing Rev. Noland, his love for our Lutheran heritage, and the integrity of the man in general. To even suggest that he might resign ‘over a raise’ is a serious call on the man’s integrity that I will protest on his behalf. Where is the 8th commandment issue now?
Even if this is not a part of an attack on confessionalism, it is yet one more mess among many that are striking frequently in our Synod. Such must give one pause, at least.
Also, spend a moment to reflect on the way the firings have taken place, the non-Lutheran shape of the current Synodical evangelism effort (nothing that tells me it is Lutheran at all, theologically), and the general direction of our Synod, which, at the moment, is turning to go far from the course Walther & our forefathers held.
John,
I hardly think that speculatively accusing the Rev. Dr. Noland of abandoning a call because of greed is putting the best construction on things.
Why do you feel compelled to to “put the best construction” on Synodical bureaucracy at the expense of individual Christians? Or do you regard synodical bureaucrats and executives as “spiritual fathers” who are due special deference because of their office? Note that Luther calls “spiritual fathers” those who “govern and guide us by the Word of God,” not those who would govern and rule over us by bylaws, resolutions, and programs and tell those who refuse to accept them as equivalent to the Great Commission to go away.
“Also, spend a moment to reflect on the way the firings have taken place, the non-Lutheran shape of the current Synodical evangelism effort…”
That is where I obviously disagree. Our beloved Synod is not in error in its evangelism efforts. If you think otherwise, you are duty bound to file doctrinal charges with your local District President. I highly doubt you will be taken seriously. So, you might as well save your energy and just leave our Synod right now. You are not going to win.
The critique of our Synod from a non-Lutheran Anglican is totally without merit. The guy knows little to nothing about our Synod. It is another example of slander and defamation without any reasonable grounding in the facts. Our Synod remains Christ focused, with the cross at its center. Love it, or leave it.
By the way, just because I suggested the possibility that Dr. Noland resigned because he did not get a raise, does not necessarily mean that I am arguing that he is greedy. Perhaps the income of CHI could not keep up with the cost of living increase that he needed for taking care of his family.
My best construction of John’s commentary is that it is hilarious.
John,
I’ll call you JMK so people won’t confuse you with me.
That’s why I use my real name.
JMK,
I find that sometimes we may, MAY , jump too quickly . As has been said before Mollie has been correct in her reporting, so we will tend to accept the information as presented to us. No one in Synod is as up front with us. The letter responses are bland nothing whispers in our ears, to lull us into blissfull slumber, only to wake up to a new nightmare day after day.
Don’t you find it comforting knowing that you are allowed to post and allowed to present your case on this blog without deletion? Other blogs would delete you or not post it as in JHC blog where all are to be “approved.”
As for “leaving us alone” I don’t know who US “is” but as I see it I am stockholder in the LCMS corporation.
Yes, corporation LCMS is not the Church but is ruled by the Church. It was implimented to assist groups of churches as a central distribution, if you will, to get more bang for the buck. But now the tail is waggin the dog.
LCMS has to abide by the rules of the Church IE The Bible and its doctrine and the Book of Concord as it is applied to the Church. It also has to be a corporation that answers to it’s stockholder’s and founders. That ain’t happening. So yes, we are leary of the moves being made. If synod insists on acting as a corporation then we as stockholders will start treating Synod like a corporation. Full disclosure audits. Accountability of elected and hired empolyees…I think you get the Idea.
And no it dosen’t violate the 8th or 4th.
Oh by the way it is also My synod and my Father’s and his Father’s and his Father’s and also his Father’s.
I ain’t leaving yet.
John Hooss
“Our Synod remains Christ focused, with the cross at its center. Love it, or leave it.”
I feel the warmth!
Krauth describes the final victory of heresy as complete and intolerate domination. Keischnick and his posse won so everybody else should just get out. That is what I’m hearing.
Why do we call it The Beloved Synod?
It sounds like we’re elevating a Political governing body above Christ, which if I’m not mistaken is breaking the FIRST Commandment. We’ve kind of been ignoring that one as of late what with all this 4th and 8th Commandment talk.
“Great Leader” and “Dear Leader” seem awfully close.
I have known Marty for 30 years. I believe he loved his recent work at the CHI and also loved Scripture and the Confessions. I see no reason to believe that his resignation would be of his own doing, but I am still not one to say.
However, as mentioned in these recent posts, we need be concerned about the apparent trend to get rid of us who are too Lutheran and confessional (read “ultra-orthodox,” an abominable word today). Fortunately for me, I am a teacher, though I am wondering if I will continue to have confessional schools in which to teach for the next/last nineteen years of my career.
As was mentioned earlier, it seems as though a confessional is mean-spirited when pointing out error, but not the other way around. The emperor apparently doesn’t need any clothes.
John,
Your arguments are problematic and I take offense at them. You argue that we should not listen to the outside opinion of Bob simply because it is an outside opinion!?! You argue that we should all leave Synod because DPs won’t take seriously our concerns about false doctrine and un-Christian practice?!?
You are right in your caution for us not to jump to conclusions about Noland and CHI parting ways, but in your calling for us to abstain from ad hominum attacks, you employ ad hominum attacks.
I do want you to continue posting as our faith and understanding can improve through your critical questioning (and I hope vice versa), but please stick to Scripture and sound logic, not irrational attacks.
I thank you in advance.
John writes:
“Also, spend a moment to reflect on the way the firings have taken place, the non-Lutheran shape of the current Synodical evangelism effort…”
That is where I obviously disagree. Our beloved Synod is not in error in its evangelism efforts. If you think otherwise, you are duty bound to file doctrinal charges with your local District President. I highly doubt you will be taken seriously. So, you might as well save your energy and just leave our Synod right now. You are not going to win.
A point of clarification–it is a good thing to do as “John” says and follow the procedure for dissent from the public position of Synod. But you can only do this if you are a pastor or get your whole congregation to do it. This doesn’t involve “filing doctrinal charges,” that’s something you do when you think a person has taught false doctrine.
The problem is, if I’m not mistaken, you can’t dissent from ABLAZE or the theology of ABLAZE because the Committee on Constitutional Matters (CCM) has ruled that ABLAZE is not a doctrinal resolution. I’m pretty certain on that. So there’s no real way to dissent from it, as John suggests.
The second thing that is truly disturbing about his comments is the idea that if those who are in power at this moment don’t agree with you, you should just leave. Why? Is the synod a power structure or the church? On the contrary, it’s our duty to do everything in our power to proclaim God’s word and seek to recall our fellowship to the pure teaching of God’s word when it strays. Besides, the present direction of the church has left “us,” not vice versa. The Missouri Synod has always been a staunchly confessional Lutheran church. If it isn’t anymore, it’s foolish to say to confessionals, “Hey, you don’t agree with the Missouri Synod, so leave!” Actually, the present Missouri Synod has left the historical Missouri Synod. That’s why it’s so important for us to have something like CHI, so that we are forced to reckon with our history, instead of just ignoring it or departing from it without honestly saying, “You know what we were as Missouri Lutherans from 1847 to somewhere in the middle of the last century? We were wrong. We were too legalistic, and now we repent.” We never do that. We act like we teach the same things, when we don’t.
“The problem is, if I’m not mistaken, you can’t dissent from ABLAZE or the theology of ABLAZE because the Committee on Constitutional Matters (CCM) has ruled that ABLAZE is not a doctrinal resolution.”
Have you ever attempted to substantiate your position with documented letters and a response from the Synod’s adjudication process? I think your position avoids following the due process on conflict resolution that our Synod has put forth for all of its members to follow.
John. If we don’t like it we should just leave???!! Give me a break! The Happy Clappy crowd hyjacks the LCMS and now WE are invited to leave. Why don’t YOU leave!? The ELCA would welcome you with open arms! Oh yes, I forget. There is that bit about benefits and retirement that the clergy ( that no longer believes in the sufficiency of the Scriptures or the Power of the Holy Spirit to bring faith and illumination) is loath to leave behind and trust God for. This whole Ablaze! thing is based on trusting in man ’s understanding and provision. It also denies the power of the Holy Spirit which is just plain sin. You and others like you would like for us to just shut and leave so you can keep the infrastructure. But Honey, it ain’t gonna happen!
The news articles on the LCMS webpage need reply/comment board like this.
I wouldn’t count on it. After all, the President reports that he doesn’t take “lightly” comments that the Synod has divisions… where did that article go?
The older articles need to be more easily found too.
“I believe, teach and confess…” …spoken like a true robot from PLI.
“The news articles on the LCMS webpage need reply/comment board like this. I wouldn’t count on it.”
I noticed that “Issues Etc.” did not have a reply/comment board. So, what is the big deal?
““Issues Etc.” did not have a reply/comment board.”
We have no way to check that anymore do we? I’m sure that if we got its website back up, this might get fixed. How about it? It was a talk show, and you could in fact phone in with comments, questions, “etc.”
The CGM folks like DP Newton are about being unaccountable to anyone, except upwards in the corporate hierarchy. Same goes for the CEOs who pretend to be pastors under him.
With the blog-era, you’d think that feedback might hasten reaching out to 100 million a little faster?
No, we didn’t have a reply/comment board. We had a 24 hour commment line, comments from which we routinely played on the air.
TW
Anonymous 1138, there was a reason why, as students, we called him “Fig” Newton.
For the love of God people, the 8th Commandment is not intended to be used as a sledgehammer against arguments and points you don’t like!
Issues Etc. did have a reply/comment board, seeking all sorts of feedback. First of all, it was a call-in show. You can’t get much more open to comments than that.
Secondly, they had an online forum a few years back to allow for such comments.
Lastly and most recently, they had a listener response number. 314-505-7825, if memory serves. I haven’t heard the number given for a while. And they did not avoid or deny criticism, but openly let people respond to anything that was said on the show.
Let’s just get one thing clear: John’s not being presumptuous when he suggests those who don’t toe-the-line with the Synod leave, he’s merely echoing what was determined by the 2006 LCMS Blue Ribbon Task Force Report for Funding the Mission:
“The generation long divisions among us have frustrated us all. Allowing for proper dissent through by-law allowed procedures, we also recommend that those members of this Synod that cannot embrace the convention mandated mission of our church should feel free to leave this fellowship with truth-filled integrity and find another association with whom they can partner.”
Inviting people who don’t “get on board” to leave, combined with initiating multiple task forces, are tactics of a corporation looking to transition into a new direction. Unfortunately, in today’s world, we can replace “corporation” in that last sentence with “churches”.
“We had a 24 hour commment line, comments from which we routinely played on the air…”
Todd,
I really enjoyed your show. It was a shame that it was cut off for financial reasons - unless it was for a political reason - after all, in which case I think that they should have allowed an “equal time” response with another hour show, rather than cut your show off the air entirely.
However, what you had at “Issues Etc.” was still not a reply/comment board. Also, did you ever edit or select which comments you played on the air? If you ever host a new type of “Issues Etc.” are you open to podcasting all critiques and comments without editing them? And, since you are reading this, are you open to having public dialog with folks in the LCMS that disagree with your critiques?
You’re going too far.
“However, what you had at “Issues Etc.” was still not a reply/comment board.”
So why not bring that back so that we can in fact put one on? What harm would it cause to let somebody, who cares, resurrect this website on another server somewhere? If we act in a Christian way and want to reach 100 million with the Gospel, we want to do this right, and not prevent it?
The LCMS website still has no reply/comment board. Shall we shut that down, fix it, or what?
“u are duty bound to file doctrinal charges with your local District President. I highly doubt you will be taken seriously. So, you might as well save your energy and just leave our Synod right now. You are not going to win.”
As far as the DP”s some are as lost as you. It won’t be the first time the educated lay people have corrected the hierachy.
OUR SYNOD.
Tell me who OUR is.
Hooss
Actually, the only comments I remember editing were those that were too long, or that were critical of “Ablaze,” believe it or not.
We edited the former for obvious reasons. We edited the later because I was forbidden by station managment from engaging in synodical politics on the air –and criticizing Ablaze was considered engaging in synodical politics.
We longed for comments critical of the show and its positions. They made better radio.
As for a public dialog, when the new show is up and running, feel free to call and disagree with anything we say or have said.
TW
Pr. Wilken,
New show? Please do tell a whole lot more for those of us who haven’t heard about this yet.
And, I will happily podcast all critiques/comments unedited (provided they aren’t vulgar) for anyone to hear.
When you have the Truth on your side, there is no reason to fear criticism.
Our critics helped us in ways they never imagined; and they still doing so.
Eric,
Be patient.
“As for a public dialog, when the new show is up and running, feel free to call and disagree with anything we say or have said.”
Thank you Todd, for the reply. I would hope that your new show would also not engage in Synodical politics, bash Ablaze and depart from positions that go beyond what our CTCR has said in its public statements concerning current issues. It is time to put this whole controversy behind us and move forward.
It is still “our beloved Synod.” That is the point of history and the CHI. The present false tangent does not change the multitude of years of the history of our Synod and its proclamation of the truth in the face of all kinds of false teaching in the world around us. We are the voice of the history and meaning of our Synod. Why should we leave?
Anonymous, I think that you have a false understanding of something. The CTCR offers opinions. We are not bound to what they have stated. Many documents are helpful, but I am not full agreement with everything that they have written. For example the CTCR has signed on what I consider to be a false understanding of the Eighth Commandment and public dissent.
Interesting how some don’t address the multitude of sins that are going on in LCMS. In Walther’s time the question of episcopy was paramount and almost blew the Saxon Lutherans apart. Now days the only sins that are stressed are the sins of the 8th and 4th commandments.
What we have going on in synod is addressed from the polity standpoint and not from the point of what sins need to be addressed. Polity is a gray area where anything can be flexible and abused. Sins are sins and not flexible and that is they only leverage that can be efficiently used against them.
“Why is Satan doing this to the LCMS? Why are we being punished like this?”
I think I know the answer to this angst, and would be delighted to share; but being a gentleman, I thought I would let Joel Olsteen respond with HIS perspective first.
Pr. Wilken,
Be patient? No. :-)
The LCMS is not being punished. There is just a lot of misunderstanding going on. As far as I can tell, Pastor Noland resigned simply because he wanted to go back into parish ministry. What is wrong with that?
Now that Issues Etc. will be coming back in podcast form, it is time to forget about all the hard feelings, let go and move on.
“it is time to forget about all the hard feelings, let go and move on.”
Not so fast Rodney King.
Feelings, hard or otherwise, have nothing to do with this. A misunderstanding is when I buy 2% when I meant to buy whole milk.
This is a crisis of accountability. The laity want it; Synod Inc. doesn’t. We’ll move on when there is accountability. That may take a while. You might as well make yourself comfortable.
What John/Presbyter/JMK/Jack/Anonymous is saying is perfectly clear: “Ignore the man behind the curtain.”
Perhaps the thinking is that if people will “let go and move on” long enough, the Stockholm syndrome will have a chance to kick in.
We must continue to ask non-PC questions…then listen. As Mollie repeatedly said, “Let’s wait and find out.”
As Karl Hess observed, “The second thing that is truly disturbing about his comments is the idea that if those who are in power at this moment don’t agree with you, you should just leave. Why? [...], it’s our duty to do everything in our power to proclaim God’s word and seek to recall our fellowship to the pure teaching of God’s word when it strays.”
Let us remain vigilant without shooting at everything that moves.
I am sure Pastor Wilken will continue to tell the truth in Christian love on his new show. That being said, he may be able to tell even more of the truth as he will no longer have station management or decrees sent down from the palace which prevent him from calling us sinners in our church body to repentance. God works in mysterious ways, indeed.
[...] by Adam on May 12, 2008 Great news folks! I don’t know any details, but go to this link, scroll about three-quaters of the way down, and you’ll read this comment from Pastor Todd [...]
Anybody notice the new article in World Magazine by Gene Edward Veith?
http://www.worldmag.com/articles/13998
Let’s see if this gets a response like Mollie’s articles have…
I’m afraid this “issue” is not nor has ever been about “hard feelings.” It is about power, abuses, lies, greed and false theology. It is, indeed, about the ten commandments, the creed, and the Lord’s Prayer - and while we’d all say, “yes, we like those,” we happen to have very differentiating theological views as to what “those” pieces of “doctrine” happen to mean, especially regarding “practice.”
We can let all of the hard feelings go, but we still have the issues of our Synod leadership supporting culturally developed church growth techniques, calling back missionaries, running Christ’s church like a business (a poorly run one at that), letting laymen act like pastors, allowing open communion, worshipping like TBN, being man focussed, etc., etc., etc…
John is saying exactly what the Jesus Firsters, and the circle of the Purple K have been saying to themselves: let’s get control and then if those confessional / traditionalists / this ought to be a church our grandfather would be proud of types don’t like it — they can leave… uhhh that is after they get out their checkbooks.
Sorry John, K has a track record - life has been changing in the Synod since he came in.
Remember his acolyte’s words — …”when you sent A son of God”… there in Yankee Stadium that started all this stuff.
ps. It’s OK to Pray(tm)
John,
YOU LEAVE. How’s that for 8th commandment?
When I started reading this commentary, I was just interested as I am always when from way up here in Canada, I daily read this blog. As a Confessional Lutheran of the LCC (your sister synod, like LCMS but with more snow) and a Seminarian, I have watched things down there with extreme interest, and have voiced my support with you.
When I read John’s comments:
Our beloved Synod is not in error in its evangelism efforts. If you think otherwise, you are duty bound to file doctrinal charges with your local District President. I highly doubt you will be taken seriously. So, you might as well save your energy and just leave our Synod right now. You are not going to win.
I was shocked and sad. This is what I have come to expect. But I was still sad. But when I read Pastor Wilken’s comments, I was delighted.
Pastor, you have been formative in regards to my theology and formation as a “Servant for Jesus’ Sake” I have been listening to you for years, and look forward to continuing. (all via podcast, BTW).
But, I thought the assembled might be interested in seeing this chart that was made up by the East District of LCC regarding the various theological expressions within our synod and see if my brothers and sisters to the south find it interesting.
http://www.lcceastdistrict.ca/Publications/Meleg-Three%20Synods%20Chart.pdf
Sorry, here it is.
Just one last note. Before one goes to the DP, or anywhere, with allegations of false doctrine,One must make sure to tackle, thoroughly and carefully, the facts. Then, it is time to discuss the facts in a friendly and thoughtful manner with those whom those facts concern. Such avoids anger, misconception, slander, gossip, (insert other aspects of Satan’s work here). If one is in error then one is corrected in Christian charity. If one does find heresy, truly and unrepentantly, then it is perhaps time for more action. At that point, it is no laughing matter. Any DP, or any other person who realizes the seriousness of such an accusation, would never laugh it off. Ask the Galatians.
That was a reply directed to John’s comment to me, not to the general discussion on this thread, just to clarify.
My guess is that Dr. Noland was given the choice of resigning or being dismissed without cause. The former gets you a parachute; the latter a hard landing. This came from his board; who knows why. And there is probably a gag order as part of the parachute, so don’t count on hearing exactly why for a long time.
Quinn,
That looks like a valuable analysis.
Tempus,
Why is that that you don’t you ask Dr. Noland instead of making such ridiculous speculations?
The best and kindest explanation for all concerned (See Matthew 18 in Luther’s Small Catechism) is that Dr. Noland wanted to go back into parish ministry. To suggest otherwise is to put the worst construction on this whole event.
You knocked me over with a feather with this one.
I’m trying to figure out how two things about CHI fit with this.
First, it’s being moved - at huge expense - to the violet vatican / purple palace.
Second, its board raised its lifetime membership fee from $500 to $5000 not very long ago.
I didn’t like the idea of the move to the VV/PP in spite of the confidence that it would expose more people CHI’s fine historical displays. Just something creepy about being in the belly, etc.
I still can’t figure the logic of the extreme increase in lifetime membership; it seemed like a pennywise/pound foolish decision when I heard of it.
Now, with the letting-go of the very able M. Noland, I’m thinking the three “go together,” but for the life of me I can’t figure out how.
John, just forget it and lets move on.
John, just leave this blog if you don’t like it.
John/Jack/JKM/Whatever . . .
Why is it that you speculate that I haven’t asked Dr. Noland? Perhaps when I did, he couldn’t give an answer because of the gag order.
The 8th commandment seeks to explain the _truth_ in the kindest. Perhaps you do not know the truth, but only what you have been told is the truth (or what you prefer to believe is the truth).
Your church is cool! It’s beginning to remind me of the good old days, when my enemies just …. disappeared!
Poof, there they went!!!
John said:
“The best and kindest explanation for all concerned (See Matthew 18 in Luther’s Small Catechism) is that Dr. Noland wanted to go back into parish ministry.”
No, it’s not. Not unless you know something nobody else does. Your “best construction” suggests as fact that Dr. Noland is moving on to Parish Ministry. This could very well not be true. In which case, you’ve violated the 8th commandment in its broadest sense, which is speaking something that is not true.
In other words, by buying into your delusion (unless you know more than anyone else) that Dr. Noland wants to go back to being a parish Pastor, you are creating a lie for yourself. You are living in a la-la-land. For the sake of the Lord, wait for the facts and ask the man himself if you can’t. Otherwise, stick to the facts. Quit blowing smoke up rears.
May the Lord bless Dr. Noland and his future, whatever it holds.
Tempus,
There is not a shred of evidence for a “gag order.” You are just making it up. Otherwise, why else would you use the word “perhaps” in your sentence? The truth is that you don’t know why Pastor Noland resigned. Your speculation about it puts the worst construction on it and does not explain it in a kind manner - i.e. it trashes the Lutheran Confessions (Small Catechism - 8th Commandment).
John,
You seem to have a rather casual regard for a divine call. If Dr. Noland had a new call to a specific congregation, he might well have resigned his call to CPH to take the new call. Do you know of the existence of such a call? If he simply “wanted to go back into parish ministry” as you say and resigned without a call (whether for financial reasons as you alleged earlier or otherwise), he would be sinfully abandoning his call–unless you mean to suggest that there were such serious problems with the board and CHI that he was bound in conscience to resign. Is that what you are implying?
John,
You seem to have a rather casual regard for a divine call. If Dr. Noland had a new call to a specific congregation, he might well have resigned his call to CPH to take the new call. Do you know of the existence of such a call? If he simply “wanted to go back into parish ministry” as you say and resigned without a call (whether for financial reasons as you alleged earlier or otherwise), he would be sinfully abandoning his call–unless you mean to suggest that there were such serious problems with the board and CHI that he was bound in conscience to resign. Is that what you are implying?
>>If you don’t like our Synod (LCMS) than you should just leave and join some other denomination.<<
No, John, it’s *the current administration* of our synod that I don’t like. I want *them* to leave . . . office. And I intend to do lots to make that happen.
>>The Great Commission is at stake.<<
Would that be the Commission on Constitutional Matters or the Commission on Theology and Church Relations?
Has there been any confirmation of Pastor Noland’ s resignation from the CHI from an outside source? If so, how do you know that he has not been given a call to a parish? There is a lot of speculation on this blog without any supporting facts.
Dear Johnny-come-lately, new kid in town:
—-
It is with regret that I confirm that Dr. Martin Noland has resigned as Executive Director of the Concordia Historical Institute effective May 9th, 2008. Dr. Noland has expressed to me in the past that he has missed the parish ministry and has a desire to return.
Dr. Noland is as excellent Church Historian and has been a great asset to CHI as we fulfill our responsibilities to collect and preserve articles of historical value and records of officers and entities of the Synod.
In the past year we have nearly doubled the storage capacity of the valuable materials. We have also moved forward with an excellent museum to be located in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod headquarters. Construction is under way.
Our prayers are with Martin and Karla that the Lord will bless him with a call to serve a parish or in another way to serve as a Church Historian.
Larry Lumpe, Chairman
Concordia Historical Institute
—
And I didn’t make this up.
[...] Another firing « Augsburg1530 Rev. Dr. Martin Noland has been fired from Concordia Historical Institute. This is the Synod’s archives and history office. More details to come. IMPORTANT UPDATE: Officially speaking, Dr. Noland offered his resignation to the board. Also, there is no indication that this was anything “bigger” than a board-motivated action. UPDATE: Based on my reporting today, I can share the following additional information. The CHI board asked Dr. Noland to resign. Since he serves at their pleasure, he resigned. The only reason really given was that CHI is short of unrestricted money and needs to make cuts. In the board’s opinion, Noland’s position would be the easiest to have vacant for an extended period of time. The board plans to fill the position with a “volunteer” for the time being. These discussions took place in executive session. I also hear that Noland had been urging his board to allow him to be more aggressive with development, but that they had resisted. Having said all that, it looks like an agreement was reached between the parties. Dr. Noland is a very smart and affable man and would be an excellent addition to a faculty and a wonderful parish pastor. I have no doubt that he will be scooped up in no time. In the meantime, I think we should pay careful attention to what happens at CHI. I believe that a pastor should head up the Institute since there are so many subtle and complex theological questions in the papers and archives of the LCMS. [...]
>>The best and kindest explanation for all concerned . . . is that Dr. Noland wanted to go back into parish ministry.<<
That would make sense if he had a call to a parish in hand. To resign into nothingness does not make sense.
Interesting.
Lumpe’s letter does NOT say that Dr. Noland resigned to take a call into the parish,
NOR that Dr. Noland resigned because he wishes to return to the parish.
It says, “Dr. Noland has expressed to me in the past that he has missed the parish ministry and has a desire to return.”
In a conversation with Dr. Noland today, he said nothing about resigning to return to the parish. He said he was asked to resign by the board and complied.
A past expression of a desire is hardly reason to ask someone for their resignation.
BTW, I just saw Marty Noland at a social event about eight days ago and had a conversation with him. He said *nothing* about a desire to resign his call or that he had a call to a parish that he was considering. If he had had such news, it is likely that he would have said something.
Someone must like Star Wars around here.
John, sometimes the “kindest way” to explain something is with the cold hard facts, not with reciting the party line. In light of the multiple rearrangements of personnel in different ministries of the Synod - Todd Wilken and Jeff Schwarz of KFUO’s Issues Etc., Rev. James May of LCMS World Missions - it’s very hard not to see a developing pattern here. The evidence may be circumstantial thus far, but as any trial lawyer will tell you, with enough circumstantial evidence, you can make or break a case. It’s piling up.
Sounds like “programmatic and business reasons” to me.
Tempus,
How can we know that you did not make up the letter like your name? And, even if this is accurate, it does not tell us Pastor Noland’s side of the story. Of course, the letter could be read with a conspiracy motive behind it or it could be understood in a totally benign manner. It does, however, confirm that he does not have a call at this time.
Perhaps he felt that he would not be taken seriously if he was still working at the CHI? I also wonder if there was a personality clash with other workers at the CHI? The resignation may not have been doctrinal at all. Again, Matthew 18 needs to frame the analysis.
Anonymous/John/JMK/Presbyter, etc.
Your comments are HILARIOUS.
I’m dropping the Lutheran Grandson, U.A.C. moniker for the good of the order.
Our pastor may be due to retire soon, but I don’t think our congregation could afford to pay Dr. Noland what he’s worth! We’d gladly have him otherwise!
The synod is human.
The congregations are divine.
Support your pastor in preaching the Gospel.
Pray for those who persecute confessional Lutheranism.
Pray for President K, et al.
When synodical life is good, praise God.
When synodical life is bad, praise God anyway.
It’s as if General Scuttlebutt were still alive and with us today!
Oh, wait. He is. I think.
Anyway, What’s-Your-Face, you might want to pay attention to the big huge glaring hole in your reasoning: if the man wanted to go back to parish ministry, why did he resign from CHI BEFORE receiving a call? If it had said, “Rev. Noland received a call to St. Oldtimer’s Lutheran Church, Wisconsin”, then we really wouldn’t have much to say on the subject.
And as Mollie has pointed out in previous articles, gag clauses are not at all uncommon among Synod personnel being removed from their office. It’s practically standard practice.
In short, the BEST we can possibly say, based on the facts before us, is that we’ll probably never know the truth unless Rev. Noland decides to reject the gag clause and lose any benefits he might have.
The more I read Lumpe’s letter, the more it sounds like another non-explanation.
“Dr. Noland has expressed to me in the past that he has missed the parish ministry and has a desire to return.”
Lumpe certainly wants to give the impression that a return to the parish was the reason for the resignation.
The problem is, he doesn’t actually say it was.
Lumpe’s “explanation” looks like a non sequitur sentence intended to substitute for an explanation.
Some one needs to call Lumpe ((800) 876-9880) and ask him directly if Dr. Noland resigned at his own initiative, or at the CHI board’s request. If it was the board’s request, then Lumpe needs to be asked what led to that request.
These non-explanations need to stop.
“The only reason really given was that CHI is short of unrestricted money and needs to make cuts. In the board’s opinion, Noland’s position would be the easiest to have vacant for an extended period of time. The board plans to fill the position with a “volunteer” for the time being. These discussions took place in executive session. I also hear that Noland had been urging his board to allow him to be more aggressive with development, but that they had resisted.”
If this is true, than there is no need to speculate about a personality clash with other workers at the CHI. The big question is why the board resisted the idea of him being more aggressive with development? Conspiracy theorists will read into it what they want and other folks will take it as a concern that the main work of CHI would suffer as a result of his absence in doing fund raising.
Mollie:
Are we sure that Anonymous/John/JMK/Presbyter, etc. isn’t David Strand?
His “could-be, might-be, perhapes and wonder-ifs” sound really familiar.
All I know is, Pastors, you guys better not “express” any “desires” past or present to your congregation. It can get you canned in the LCMS today.
Coolio McCool,
Anonymous/John/JMK/Presbyter/Jack, etc. . writes from an IP address that would indicate he is not in the midwest.
This John person is a real trip.
“Love it or leave it”?
Get a grip, John.
John,
I’m not the Anglican. I published what an Anglican said.
I don’t care where the truth comes from.
Just because he’s not LCMS means he can’t comment?
Get thee to a logic class.
This has made me sigh many deep, heavy sighs.
John: I’m one of them thar “old white men” who oughta just leave if we don’t like it, and I”ve been around the horn a few times with “moderates” a heck of a lot better than you know. And it’s been my experience that hiding behind the 8th Commandment or Matthew 18 is the last refuge of charlatans and scoundrels.
I ain’t leavin’ fella!
If Ol’ 8 and 18 were used back in the 1830’s, we’d be ruled by the Stephan family today.
Correction: “back in the 1830’s the way some try to use them today”
If Dr. Nolan’s next stop is indeed a role as a parish pastor, I heartily nominate him for our current pastoral vacancy out here in looney-land (that’d be Oregon)!
“Love it or leave it.”
Or, stay and call it to repentance.
IOW, reform it.
A crazy dream, but it has worked before.
It happened at 801 in the 70’s, who’s to say it can’t happen at 1333 today?
Circumstantial evidence? I think the evidence that Confessional Lutherans are being attacked is far greater than circumstantial. I appreciate Pastor Hendrickson’s point about getting the libs out of office and bringing Confessional voices back in.
Thank you, Pastor Hendrickson for your reasons why, namely, 51, 53, and 52.
To overturn the current reign of error at the purple palace, it will take the continued confession and teaching of God’s Word and, thereby, bringing to light for the middle-of-the-roaders the serious repercussions Adrift…I mean…Ablaze can thrust on them unawares.
Some folks say, “It’s just politics.” My response? Our crucified and risen Lord and Savior uses even politics as an arena wherein to declare repentance and the forgiveness of sins in His name. (Luke 24:47) He works through means. If that means revealing the truth through sermons, articles, retreats, seminars, classes and votes, let’s keep on letting folks know what is really going on around us.
David
Matt. 28:19-20
If Mr. Lumpe wished to truly give an honest yet non-committal statement on Dr. Noland’s resignation, he didn’t need to say any of what he put in his letters. He could’ve just said tersely that Noland offered his resignation & it was accepted. End of story.
But to say he regrets Noland’s resignation, when it was the board that asked him to resign? Funny…
To intimate that this resignation came about because Noland wished to re enter the parish ministry? Funny…
The plain, simple truth would be to say, because of financial difficulties, we have asked Dr. Noland to resign & he has freely done so. We did this because (add in your financial & efficiency reasons here). Again, end of story. No need for questions or speculation.
Mollie, are you aware of any gag order attached to the resignation?
Perhaps, the “resignation” of Pastor Noland is merely yet another example of the lengths the synod is willing to go in order to not only remove confessional Lutheranism, but to keep the money flowing into it’s coffers so it can stay on task with it’s agenda of following a downward spiral into the empty void of the lifeless Christianity of our current age?
How do we make them become accountable for the waste of manpower and financial assets within the synod?
BTW: John, the best construction I can put on the sum total of your comments is Gross Ignorance.
http://chi.lcms.org/
Funny, nothing on CHI website about the RESIGNATION.
Mollie wrote: I believe that a pastor should head up the Institute since there are so many subtle and complex theological questions in the papers and archives of the LCMS.”
IMO, given its middle name, CHI would benefit more from having a director who is a professional historian. An historian would address the problem Alan Graebner noted in his Uncertain Saints: the laity in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, 1900-1970 (Greenwood Press, 1975, p. 260):
“Parenthetically one might add that this same cast of mind helps to explain why archives have flourished in the synod while historical scholarship has not. To collect the texts of the fathers is one thing; to expose change quite another.”
BTW, Rev. Noland does have an earned Ph.D. in history theology from Union Theological Seminary with his 1996 dissertation, “Harnack’s historicism: the genesis, development, and institutionalization of historicism and its expression in the thought of Adolf von Harnack”.
“Resignation” is a favorite tool of most DPs. “If you’re having problems with your congregation…..” If you’re having problems with this District/Synod…..” In short, follow John’s advice. If you don’t like it, leave. There are more tragedies than we will ever know about.
So your nasty relatives come to visit. They trash your house, eat your food, disturb your privacy and family life, and in general make your life a living hell. It is easy to demonstrate that they have altered the house into a different state since there is, as it were, photographic evidence of its previous state.
But they’re telling us: If you don’t like it, leave.
I’d rather stand up for my home and kick the buggers out.
Is John just playing devil’s advocate or it he for real? I assume he is just speaking as if he were our Synod’s president. Either way, LOL.
If John or anyone who wants to go on the web site…….
If anyone wants to and especailly JOHN go to the web-site word alone.com. I got this of f of Issues Etc some time ago. I really got an education. They would like their trouble makers to leave also John you belong there.
w
Rev. Eckert, I think you just nailed it.
Acually I was finding John and his other names ( He has previously posted under the names “Presbyter,” “JMK” and “Jack.”) amusing until his latest tirade about “if confessional Lutherans don’t like it they should just leave the LCMS and join another demonition”.
Now is the time folks to IGNORE this viper in our midst! If you don’t rise to the bait and get distracted with bashing him back you won’t get deterred from the real issues, etc in the LCMS. He is not hiliarious and he is not amusing; he is distracting and just plain confrontational.
If you ignore him, pay no attention to his opinions, and resist the temptation to get our your high horse and try to outwit him and out quote him, you will save yourselves and me a lot of stress.
John, contrary to your dearest wish - I am staying in the LCMS! You are just a man like other men and contrary to what you think I do not believe that you have “Truth on your Side”.
I rest my case on something Pr Todd Wilken said from Hebrews:
“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear;
what can man do to me?
What can man do to you?
The answer to that question is seen just inside the threshold of the hollow tomb; it is heard in the frightened voices of the (FIRST) women who saw Him alive again; it is written in the blood of the true martyrs mingled with the blood of their Savior.
What can man do to me? Nothing; Christ is risen.
Wir sind alle Bettler,
Todd Wilken
(Provided courtesy of Pastor Weedon)
Actually, I think John has gone back to his bridge. Maybe he was hungry and some goats were trying to cross it. Either that, or the sun came up and turned him into stone.
This so call John on this response list is a coward who will not post his full name. He may be just trying to cause trouble for the faithful people. He needs the sun to shine on him or maybe he got to much sun.
Keep up the good work Pastor Todd and Jeff. Thank you Mollie for all you are doing.
Gene Vieth weighs in at World Magazine: http://www.worldmag.com/geneedwardveith
I couldn’t read the entire Vieth article, since I don’t have no money to pay for the right to read the entire Vieth article. But you gotta love his classifying Bishop Spong as a lightweight theologian.
WOW!
I’m behind, I spent the week-end dealing with an interestingly similar situation - although not theological (remember all analogies break down eventually).
My daughter went to prom with plans to stay at a friend’s Mom’s house overnight.
We got a call at 8pm from her saying that her friend’s mom needed to go to a local hotel the next morning to meet her mother (friend’s grandma) for breakfast for mother’s day and that they would be leaving the house before we were planning on being there. Could we meet them at the hotel?
When I asked why she couldn’t wait for us at the house, lack of clarity abounded. The more I probed the more obscure and vague the answer became. I wasn’t positive what was going on, but I was suspicious. Sunday morning, I decided to find out for sure, after lengthy reasons why I should just go to the hotel to meet them it came out that She’d LIED. They were at the hotel.
So, why tell this story? If it looks like a fish, smells like a fish, tastes like a fish, it probably is a fish (even if you don’t have confirmation or proof).
I’m just a laywoman, I have no theological training, but I”m not stupid and I know how to reason and I know how to think for myself.
John (or whatever you choose for your name on the next post). Most of us are pretty irate over all of this. Most of us are doing a pretty good job of behaving ourselves and not tossing accusations haphazardly (which is hard to do when you’re mad - as I had to practice this week-end). I’ve seen a lot of questions and wondering. But we smell fish, see fish, and taste fish, do you think we’re going to believe it’s Buffalo?!!???
Unless you want a Church full of people just doing what you say (which is NOT what Christ teaches through Paul who says somewhere - I’m not a Theologian - that we are to be wary of false teachings and to test them against scripture. It doesn’t say to blindly follow any teachings b/c they tell you they are scriptural. It says to test them!) you should WANT us to question decisions b/c we’re testing them against scripture.
Pr Wilken, Like Eric, patience is HARD! Thank-you for the soundbites on WT!
Mollie, you are a blessing. Now, go play with the baby! I’m off to play with mine (I have four if you count the teen - which I do). Thank-you!
In Christ
Jenn Wolf Laity, just laity and happy for my vocation!
Maybe folks should go here and ask why they fired missionaries from the field and the radio.
http://blog.lcmsworldmission.org/
Or you can just email him your questions at:
http://www.lcms.org/cntc/contactus.asp?unitabrv=10
Thanks Floyd. Great Idea!
Has any Lutheran blog site started a betting pool on who will be the next confessional Missouri Synod Lutheran to be fired/ “resign”/whatever from their synodical position… and when?
“betting pool on who will be the next…to be fired…”
How about tracking which professors are retiring from the seminaries? And seeing what theological bone-brains are taking their places.
[...] Historical Institute and so is quite familiar with synodical machinations. For details click here Augsburg 1530. He is commenting on Chris Roseborough’s provocative comment which is the 12th comment on [...]