I go to a church that is a member of the Southeastern District. We’re Ablaze!
An Ablazing Event!
The congregation of St. John’s, Farmville VA has received a firetruck and repurposed it to be a witness tool in the community. They will be dedicating it for mission on Sunday, June 29 at the 10:00 A.M. service. Pastor Joel Giese says: “The idea is simple. People, children especially, like fire trucks. They will come to see the truck and we have the opportunity to speak about Jesus. As the vehicle moves to and from events, it acts like a rolling billboard. I believe it will spark interest. The best part is that it is easy and fun. Who knew that easy and fun could be used to describe Evangelism?!”
Filed under: Updates
Conversely, who knew dorky and painful could be used to describe Evangelism?! It appears the LCMS knew.
And what is the deal with “!” in the whole ABLAZE! program?? It is highly annoying and just smacks of self-importance and forced enthusiasm.
You want fun?! Then pastors dressing up like this while preaching Law and Gospel should be a load of chuckles. For details check out the story at http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=591498
And prepare to laugh your way to Jesus with Lutheran Pastor Rick Hartmann of Melbourne, FL. (aka, Richarto the Clown) as described here: http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/1979/Todd_Friel .
Probably it should be called pre-evangelism, just like newspaper and radio ads, web sites, etc. One assumes it is not taking the place of the Divine Service, so what is the problem? Can it be that we get overly sensitive?
Looks like it would be a natural for a float for the community parade.
Unlike advertisements, it’s just gimmicky. I never like the bait and switch of such gimmicks. You just want to show your kids a fire engine but the church people are just using it to proselytize.
The fact is that evangelism is woefully underdone throughout Christendom. But the way it is best done, in my opinion, is through personal relationships. Christians get to share the Gospel with their friends and family but they avoid doing it for some reason.
I’m not saying the fire truck is evil. But it’s just embarrassing that people think it’s a good example of an evangelism tool.
I don’t recall Jesus or the apostles using “Ablaze! Chariots” to get the attention of people to talk to them about their need for salvation. But more importantly, my question would be what kind of message are they going to get once they’re “lured in” to the church by the bait? Will they get the full Law and Gospel treatment or a watered-down, inoffensive version?
Mollie,
Don’t cringe; chuckle.
You can’t make this stuff up. This reminds me of the old LCMS Hot Air Balloon Ministry. Irony incarnate.
I think I saw it recently floating aimlessly through the skies over 44 and 270 in St. Louis.
Still, I’m having a hard time seeing how a fire truck fits the Ablaze!, Fan Into Flame, Igniting Congregations motif. Shouldn’t it be some sort of vehicle equipped with a flame-thrower? I mean, kids like those too.
Cringe not, you know that a church program is breathing its last when it becomes a parody of itself.
TW
Maybe Ablaze!(R) is related to Fahrenheit 451, in which the masses are hedonistic, and critical thought through reading is outlawed.
Who needs your Lutheran Creeds, when we can have your flaming deeds?
P.S. Thanks to Ablaze!(R), I’m remaining more comfortable in my Calvinism– at least until June 30.
I can hear the disappointment now:
‘Daddy took me to see a real firetruck and a real fireman and a big spotted firedog, and to ring the bell and make the siren go–and all I got was some guy telling me about Jesus.
Next weekend, can we just go camping?’
Maybe Ablaze! will just fizzle out, all by itself.
Are you sure that wasn’t in The Onion? I wonder if attendance will now go down at the annual city fire prevention night?
The problem isn’t with the fire truck per se but with the pastor’s understanding of what Christianity is about: fun & easy. Therefore, if our evangelism is going to be fun & easy, then our worship services must be too, & then also our teaching as well.
But somehow I don’t think the Christians being thrown to the lions & burning on crosses to light Nero’s gardens all because they refused to simply make obeisance to the emperor cult thought Christianity was fun & easy.
Mollie,
I appreciate all that you’ve done for the sake of Issues and Lutheranism, but I question this post.
I’ve known Pastor Giese as a good, faithful, intelligent man. We may question the wisdom of the fire engine project, but is this worthy of dragging his name in the open to be mocked as some have chosen to do in the comments? Even if we see the fire engine project as a bad idea, I think that if we knew Pastor Giese and the totality of his ministry, we would wave it off as an aberration to be overlooked.
For all those who wish to publicly criticize Pr. Giese, hear the teachings of our confessions:
“Furthermore, Peter’s statement about love is taken from Proverbs, where the antithesis clearly shows how it ought to be interpreted, “hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses.” This teaches precisely the same thing as Paul’s statement in Colossians, namely, that if any dissensions flare up, they should be extinguished and settled by fairness and kindness on our part . . . . That is to say,
even though these offenses flare up, love conceals them, forgives, yields, and does not carry everything to the fullest extent of the law . . . . [Peter] means that in human relations love is not obstinate, harsh, or intractable; instead, it overlooks certain mistakes of its friends and puts the best construction on even the more offensive conduct of others . . . . For this virtue is necessary for preserving public harmony, which cannot last long unless pastors and churches overlook and pardon many things among themselves.” (Apology IV.240-243)
We have all of these ministries nowadays…
When will we simply get ‘ministry ministry’ (Word and Sacrament – predigtamt) ?
I think Pastor Wilken is saying that Ablaze may have “Jumped the Shark” given that it is commercialism and entertainment.
Now I’m just confused.
On the one hand, we have a program (is it a program? Is it a mission? An event? Oh well…just more confusion) that wants us on fire for the faith, while on the other we have a firetruck dedicated to putting out the fire.
Lord, to which do we go?
Is it ‘burn, baby, burn, or ‘Don’t hose me, Bro’
?
Richard,
The only proper “pre-evangelism” for the Gospel is the Law. Not firetrucks. Not ice cream socials. Not clowns.
Only the Law, condemning and accusing, prepares people to hear and receive the Gospel.
To attract people to the forgiveness of sins by things which appeal to the flesh is utterly foreign to the Gospel. Jesus didn’t do miracles to attract people to the Gospel (especially as was the case in His own home town).
“Pre-evangelism” using gimmicks is one of the deleterious beliefs and practices of the Ablaze! proponents who engage in missiolatry, not evangelism.
They lost! me at the word! “repurposed!”
“At the end of Sunday’s service, he handed out colorful pinwheels and gave this benediction: “And now may you know the glee of the Lord Jesus Christ, the mirth of God and laughter of the Holy Spirit, this day and 24/7. Amen.”"
Glee, mirth, laughter? I can get those on TV. At worship I want to be assured that my sins are forgiven.
Is there a difference between humor and plain old gooiness?
Ah, and remember the ping-pong ball benedictions and such at the LCMS national youth gatherings (2001?). And these people wonder why Higher Things and other organizations are formed as confessional Lutheran alternatives to “official” synod stuff.
http://wy.lcms.org/youth/resources.htm
“At the end of Sunday’s service, he handed out colorful pinwheels and gave this benediction: “And now may you know the glee of the Lord Jesus Christ, the mirth of God and laughter of the Holy Spirit, this day and 24/7. Amen.””
I would not be pleased if my Pastor did that.
You know, they’re really in a panic that we’re not attracting enough men and don’t have enough ministry opportunities for women. So here it is, the latest Ablaze suggestion! The Lutheran evangelism strip club and brothel! It would attract a lot of men who need to hear about Jesus, provide women with lots of ministry opportunities, and really be out there on the cutting edge. I could come up with all sorts of great slogans for it. And it would raise lots of money to fund the bureaucracy!
Hope they do not see your post Pastor Walter or they may do what you have suggested. It would bring in the money and the people and that is what it is all about. Remember “do what ever it takes”. Out with the truth of the Word and in with the brew of this world. It is so sad a person has to weep over the LC-MS.
At Pentecost it was through the Word of God preached by Peter in Law and Gospel that through the Holy Spirit brought people to repentance and baptism.
Still why were there people there to hear Peter? Was there something about the sound of the wind and tongues of flame?
We have assumed that because the congregation got a fire engine they no longer preach Law and Gospel. That they do “whatever it takes.” And it will lead to a strip club and brothel. They are clowns.
No wonder some people are turned off by us. This is not pastor Wilken’s way.
“Hope they do not see your post Pastor Walter or they may do what you have suggested.”
No doubt under the “Sin boldly” mantra. ;-)
Richard there is a profound difference between a miracle to authenticate the Word and a foolish human gimmick. Such a gimmick attracts attention but does not serve to point to the Word. We truly become clowns when we try to do the Holy Spirit’s work for him.
Yes, it was Law and Gospel preaching at Pentecost which led people to repentance and faith – the Spirit working through the Word.
There weren’t, however, any advance brochures or community service announcements saying, “Be at Shlomo’s house at 7 p.m. this Pentecost evening for an extravaganza of loud rushing wind and tongues of flame! Everyone is guaranteed to hear a special message in their own language! It will be fun for all!”
In the case of the fire truck, one doesn’t have to assume anything. The “whatever” in “whatever it takes” betrays something other than Law and Gospel at work. There is no “whatever” other than Law and Gospel that brings about faith and life. Not clowns. Not firetrucks. Not whatever.
If people are turned off by us it’s because we proclaim Jesus Christ according to His Word — which has throughout the history of the world turned off people. And more than that, we’re not trying to “turn on” people as if Timothy Leary were teaching us evangelism techniques.
People with real sin — people who are contrite and have hearts broken by guilt, fear and shame before the almighty Lord God — THESE are the people who long for the Gospel. Jesus came for sinners.
Sinners aren’t interested in clowns and firetrucks. They want forgiveness. It is only people who don’t know their sin that want to be amused and entertained with clowns and karaoke Christianity.
You seem to think that you know something about Pastor Wilken’s way. I invite you to call into the show when it gets going again and ask, “Pastor Wilken, what do you think about clowns and firetrucks for doing pre-evangelism work? Don’t you think that people should do WHATEVER it takes to get people to hear the Gospel?”
I won’t be surprised if his response turns you off if you truly think that people are brought to faith and that Law and Gospel are not obscured by the antics of men like Joel Giese. Personally, I’m embarrassed by his behavior. If THAT is what the LCMS is all about, then I hope someone will file a complaint against me, suspend me, and remove me from this synod.
Ultimately, I’d like to see us all get back to the proper distinction between Law and Gospel. I don’t like having to be critical of pastors and congregations like those mentioned in this example. I can’t help but be critical when I see such an abrogation of the proclamation of the Gospel as was related about that congregation in Virginia. The end result of such nonsense will not be to the comfort, joy and edification of Christ’s holy people.
Oh, gimmicks are so fun. I mean, I truly would have put down the chicken bones and graveyard dirt if someone handed me a pinwheel, or if I saw a shiny firetruck.
Yup.
“Repurposed” it, did they? Sad, when Lutherans start verbing nouns.
Did they ever use the phrase, “Only Jesus can prevent eternal fires?” Pardon me while I gag.
“They will come to see the truck and we have the opportunity to speak about Jesus. ”
Sounds like a classic bait and switch tactic to me. It’s illegal for Best Buy stores to do it and it should be illegal for churches to do it as well. When you go to see a fire truck you usually expect to see some firemen too. If the pastor is also a chaplain to the fire department, I will give him credit for that, but why do we Lutherans always think we have to trick someone into thinking we are somebody we are not in order to get them to come to our church.
“As the vehicle moves to and from events, it acts like a rolling billboard.”
Oh no, not another billboard in the LCMS. I hope that Satan doesn’t get any say on this billboard.
So you still claim to be able to know that that church does not preach Law and Gospel. You know this because they got a cheap used fire truck. If the church has playground equipment, would this also be a sign of their apostasy? If they have a float in the local parade, is this also a sign of “anything goes?” You also know that they must also have clowns in the worship service. You also know that they have the heresies that Jefferson Hills has on its website.
Richard, I grew up in a church that had a playground, ball fields, picnic grove and the like. The last I checked, they were for children to play, for ball games, and for picnics. We enjoyed all these things greatly. But I don’t recall any of them ever being used for evangelism. And they certainly weren’t built for evangelism. In fact when I was growing up you could count the households, in the community, on one hand who weren’t already members of the church. Most those were Catholics who had moved out from Bay City.
I, too, fail to see how the firetruck fits into the Ablaze!® Igniting Congregations movement. It reminds me more of a portion of one of the passages I frequently use on hospital visits (and one that I think of every time I hear about the latest program within the Ablaze!® movement):
“When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze.” – Isaiah 42:2b (NIV)
And Rev. Wilken, the end of your comment put quite the image in my head. I flashed to Mel Brooks walking on his knees in a shimmering brown robe through the LCMS giftshop – “Merchandizing! That’s where the money is. Ablaze!® the Button, Ablaze!® the Pencil, Ablaze!® the MP3 player, Ablaze!® the Flamethrower! (The kids really love that one!)”
Greetings in Christ, one and all.
Let me begin by saying that I am the pastor with the truck (or as some of you have lovingly called it the “Gimmick”).
Perhaps this tool will not work in your area. Fine. In a few years and by God’s grace we might find that the seeds of faith have been sowed in one lost heart here. Not by the truck, of course, anyone who thinks that is fooling themselves and cheapens the work of the Holy Spirit, but by proclamation face to face. All the truck does is provide opportunity. It is a conversation starter, as this forum has proved. The rest is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Sorry to disappoint, but there is no bait and switch. It is clear that the truck belongs to a Lutheran church. If you come to St. John’s you get the Divine Service and a Law/Gospel sermon (granted, some are better than others). As for baseball fields and picnic tables, we don’t have those things. We have a fire truck that our people can be excited about and share with others.
Clearly, I do not agree with a few of the opinions stated above. It always saddens me to see brothers and sisters in faith who are so willing to butcher one of their own without actually knowing details or if it is warranted. As uncharitable and school-yard as some of your comments are (it is easier to cut someone down if you don’t know them and are not looking them in the eye), you are entitled to your opinion.
Therefore, if you are ashamed of the truck or the faithful people of this congregation or of a rightly Called Pastor, fine. There is little that I can say or do that will change that. But know that I am not ashamed of our shared Faith, our Lutheran Confessions, or the LCMS, warts and all. Nor am I ashamed of the message that Jesus has called each believer to share. This you should know.
Your brother in Christ,
Pastor Giese
Rev. Giese, thanks for confirming that what everyone said was true.
“Sorry to disappoint, but there is no bait and switch. It is clear that the truck belongs to a Lutheran church. If you come to St. John’s you get the Divine Service and a Law/Gospel sermon (granted, some are better than others).”
If there is no bait and switch, then the firetruck must be in the Divine Service. Since it is not, and the truck represents “easy and fun” (your words) then you bait them with one thing and give them something else. Unless perhaps your Divine Service is also “easy and fun”?
“We have a fire truck that our people can be excited about and share with others.”
Gee, I thought Jesus and His Blood were enough motivation for a thousand lifetimes.
Pastor Giese:
Thank you for clearing that up.
I’m glad to hear that this isn’t being billed as some sort of fire truck “ministry” (unless, of course, the church were using the truck to actually put out fires).
In all seriousness, how does a fire truck fit the Ablaze! motif? Or was the fire truck even intended to be connected to Ablaze!?
(The exclamation points aren’t mine, they’re the Hughs Group’s (the consultants who dreamt up Ablaze!), so please don’t think that I’m shouting at you.)
Wir sind alle Bettler,
TW
I consider myself to be a confessional lutheran. i am not happy about what seems to be happening in the denomination. I really appreciate what Rev. Brondos said about the necessity for law and gospel, there is something vaguely untruthful about not telling people they are sinners just as there is something vaguely untruthful about asking grandpa for his money and then using that money to change the denomination.
But maybe the truck is just a truck just like the sign in front of the church is just a sign in front of the church, advertising.
Maybe when people visit St. John’s, the liturgy is done and law and gospel is preached and the Lord’s Supper is given.
If my memory serves Jonathan Edwards was fairly deterministic, believe that every choice was a product of previous choices. Sometimes, I don’t always see things fresh, what I see is a product of what I want to see.
Maybe the truck is just a truck.
It is what it is – conversation starter.
How anyone who has not attended there claim that Law and Gospel are not being preached or that the divine service there is “easy and fun.” Who are any of you to make charges of this nature?
It was not the pastor who connected this with Ablaze in the newspaper article. It was Mollie’s title. The mistake the pastor made was to call it evangelism. For this his whole ministry is condemned.
Pastor Lewer,
It was not my title. I took it from the Southeastern District’s newsletter they send out periodically.
Mollie
I should say — I cut and pasted the entire thing, title and all, from the SED newsletter.
Also, I agree that people are not as charitable as they should be in their comments. In fact, I have been less than pleased with quite a few of the comments in the last few months. I obviously find the fire truck to be a regrettable idea — but I think we should keep discussions on the important issues themselves and speak as if we are face to face.
And I don’t feel that Pr. Giese has addressed the very real concerns about the flaws with this “evangelism tool.” I would like that discussion and hope that Pr. Giese or his defenders can add something to the conversation. Thus far, I’m not convinced that it is anything other than, as I said, a gimmick.
I was formerly a pentecostal. Ablaze! type of gimmicks are old hat. Thirty years ago I saw a pastor in Illinois make a bet that he would preach from a cherry-picker basket if certain fund raising goals were met. They were met and he did it. Many thought it was great fun. It even made the local newspaper. Great advertising. However, the sermon was entirely motivational–not Word centered, not Christ centered–but then all his sermons were always that flavor of enthusiasm. How empty it all was in the final analysis.
Later in the same church the youth minister made a bet that he would cut off all his hair if the youth met certain fund raising goals. The night that his hair was cut off in the Narthex of the Church was one of the last nights I attended that church. (I always found it odd that such bets were acceptable in a church that preached against all gambling.)
Later a pentecostal church in St. Louis county that we attended had announcements going on during their Lord’s Supper distribution. It was easier with their crowded schedule during the service. Is this part of the fun and easy mind-set? That was the last pentecostal service I ever attended or will ever attend. My disgust with their lack of decency and reverence was the catalyst for my attendance and later confirmation in the Lutheran Church. In light of this I suppose we might look at Lutheran gimmicks as a means to drive people to other churches, but then that is an anti-Ablaze! outcome, an unintended consequence of silly ideas.
It is easy to rationalize around the glaring fact that these enthusiast gimmicks detract, confuse, frustrate, and insult people. The mind-set of a church that thinks that gimmicks are acceptable will eventually lose all sense of holiness in its Divine Service. Once you begin down that road you will continually seek new gimmicks to attract attention because the old gimmicks become boring. Even clown vestments and semi-nude liturgical dancers will eventually be passé.
I would rather be found faithfully preaching Christ through Law and Gospel and faithfully administering the Sacraments in a setting that promotes the focus where it belongs even if it means that the big crowds are down the street having fun. Christ gave us the means of evangelism through baptizing and teaching (Word and Sacraments) and through our personal testimony of the Gospel. Why do we think that our silly gimmicks are a better means? It isn’t the brief success of excitement and enthusiasm that is Christ’s standard of evaluation, but the faithfulness of our message to God’s Word and the faithfulness of our administering His sacraments.
In response to:
Worship for me is enjoyable and always has been. If you think that the Divine Service, where we are brought to the foot of the Lord in sin (Law) and yet are declared forgiven because of His Work (Gospel) is boring and must be painful, than brother, I prayerfully ask you to re-evaluate. It is one of the most amazing things that we as Christians are blessed to experience, for the work and pain that is required has been paid in full on that tree. By grace, Jesus has made the Divine Service easy for you and me. By grace, we celebrate what He has done for us and receive the pardon that His Body and Blood have won. As such, you better believe that the Divine Service is “easy and fun” for you and for me.
As for Jesus and His sacrifice for us sinners is enough motivation for a thousand lifetimes, but only if you hear about it. Think Acts. The disciples were driven by the Holy Sprit into a world that did not know about Jesus and His Blood to proclaim Christ. The Holy Spirit used that proclamation. I would have thought that this would have been understood, but the truck does not save, Jesus does. Nor does it proclaim, that is what the faithful do. The truck is simply a means to start the conversation that leads to proclamation.
So after reading some of the comments, I must respectfully ask this for the sake of debate:
1. Does the fire truck offend you because it has been attached to Ablaze! (with the funky “!”) or is there something else by which the truck offends? Give me a specific.
2. If there is something truly and fundamentally wrong with using a tool such as the truck or a billboard, or a sign out front of your church to get people to ask questions and perhaps have the opportunity to tell them about the need for a savior and the Work of Christ, what is it?
Dear brother,
None of us can speak for all, but I suspect statements such as “The best part is that it is easy and fun. Who knew that easy and fun could be used to describe Evangelism?!” are part of the problem. It sounds gimmicky.
As for myself I am responding to the general direction of Abalze! not to your firetruck specifically. I do not know anything about you or your congregation. However, I am disturbed about the Ablaze! program, the dumbing down of theology, the diminishing emphasis on Word and Sacraments, and the non-liturgical nature of worship in some featured Ablaze! churches. If you are not part of that movement I hope we will all be more charitable in our statements.
On another note–I find the liturgy of the preached Word, and the celebration of the Lord’s Supper to be many time more exciting than any enthusiast gimmick. Gimmicks cannot forgive sins! Thank God for all churches in which God’s work is received with joyful hearts!
Our church has a recycle bin in the parking lot which a lot of the general public uses and appreciates. . We are also developing an “outdoor lab” nature area to share with the community in memory of one of our members who was killed in an auto accident. Is this also a gimmick which proves that we have abandoned Law and Gospel?
Pr. Wilken asks a good question:
Forgive my naiveté and trite answer, but I enjoy the play on words. Ablaze – Firetruck. I hope the irony is not lost. It is connected to Ablaze in that fashion. It is also connected in that it is something that my congregation is familiar with. Ablaze came to town before I did. In a practical sense, I don’t have to re-invent the wheel or toss the baby with the bath water (I just change the flat tires and knock out the dents in the program). This is the call of the pastor, take what you have and as diligently and caringly as possible direct it to the center, which is Christ, through right teaching and the Word. I am not one for programs, but I will take parts of things that I deem useful to the circumstance in which I have been placed.
Pastor Giese:
There is an old saying, he who pays the piper calls the tune. Money exerts a great deal of influence and changes minds. I am a Lutheran layman, but I wonder if the money in this program isn’t being used to buy influence and change behavior. I am not saying anything about any particular individual because I don’t know the facts but I have seen how in our society, federal control follows federal money.
Greetings all,
I think the whole issue could be better cleared up if we understood things like “fun” firetrucks, nature preserves, playgrounds as SERVICES of love. Frankly, whatever they are, we should do them without expectations, and without assigning to them the necessity of drawing a crowd. We should serve as we can serve. Kudos to that.
Evangelism is something else all together. Often, in the midst of Christian service, Evangelism does take place. But Christian service is not “an evangelism” tool. There is no evangelism tool but the Word and Spirit of God. Anything else leads down a very slick plank into synergism.
Is this not the issue with Ablaze!? “If we don’t save the “snap snap snap” dying people, then we haven’t saved them!” ? This is to place salvation back upon man.
Evangelism happens when the creed becomes more than a memory verse recited on Sundays – when it becomes a worldview for interpretting every day and place of life. People who are converted to that Christianity will evangelize, whereever they are – be it on a firetruck at the park, or by actually talking to their neighbors.
The real issue is that we Americans are so socially useless that we actually need gimmicks in order to talk to our neighbors. Entertainment-driven lives. That’s a problem. But the firetruck won’t fix that or make it worse. It’s who we are.
Anyway POINT being: we could save ourselves a lot of pain if we’d call service “service” and save “evangelism” for the act of actually speaking the Gospel (which is a supernatural gift whenever and whereever it happens.)
My two ecrevolution.com cents. :D
Perhaps I should make clear that I am not an apologist for Ablaze; there are people who are paid to do that. Like many, I have some serious concerns regarding its focus and direction. I deeply pray that the original intention was honorable. Again, perhaps it is naiveté. However, I have no proof otherwise, just gut feelings, so until there is proof of questionable intent, it is not up to me to judge and condemn.
What I see is that pastors and leadership have failed in the last 40 years to motivate Lutheran congregations to get out the front door to let people know that there is more than just vanilla Non-Denominationalism out there. We have real meat and potato food, which is confessional Lutheranism. When people get food like this they come back, but they have to know were to find it. If we turn from who and what we are, Lutherans, we have issues like our brother in the ELCA and become like the rest of the vanilla out there…my opinion.
So to bring it back to the truck again, it would be a gimmick if it were replacing what we Lutherans do: Law/Gospel Word and Sacrament ministry. It would be a gimmick if I was to somehow replace the Words of Institution with a toot from the siren and a flash of the emergency lights. It would be a gimmick if I were to have a mass baptism using the fire hose (shudder). But it is none of these. It is simply a tool that gives our people an opportunity to proclaim Christ in places that you might not normally get to, a car show, a festival or the like. And what you must understand is that no matter how many people come by and want to talk about the fire truck, or about Jesus, the real work is not mine, but God’s. The truck is merely an invitation, as I said before…a conversation starter.
Mollie, did that help? You mentioned real concerns and flaws with the truck…what are they?
revfisk,
very good points\
Rev. Giese,
Well stated. Hopefully, you can now collect a whole hat full of apologies.
I read this article on Pastor Giese’s congregation’s firetruck and the unflattering way in which Pastor Giese has been treated on this blog and it’s been bothering me all day.
I am happy that Pastor Giese has entered into a dialogue with some posters and, at this point, I would like to come to his defense.
Now, I admit that I don’t know the details of what St. John’s plans to do with their firetruck. I know they hope it’ll attract a crowd…but beyond that, I don’t know what the plan is for teaching and baptizing. But then, I don’t need to know. Even though my father is a Chicago firefighter, the fire truck thing isn’t my cup of tea…but then again, it doesn’t have to be. I’m not the pastor at St. John’s; Joel Giese is, and knowing Joel personally, they’re blessed to have him there.
Joel and I started at the Seminary together, had the same field work congregation, and were under Rev. Tom Baker for a time. I’ve had many conversations with Joel about theological matters and have gone to him with some of my life problems and concerns. The man is solid, Confessional, and loving. I’ve heard some of his sermons, I’ve watched him teach Sunday School, and I’ve even proofread one of his term papers. I have all the confidence in the world in Rev. Giese.
Again, he’s solid. Again, he’s Confessional. Again, he’s traditional. Again, he’s loving. Again, he cares deeply about the great commission. If he were my Pastor, I know I wouldn’t have to worry about “filtering” any doctrine, and I would recognize that I’m well taken care of. This blog’s “bad pastor hunters” are attacking the wrong guy.
Rev. Matthew Gunia
Associate Pastor, Trinity Lutheran Church
Burr Ridge, IL
You know what I don’t understand?
Apparently these gimmicks are being used to try and reach non-Lutheran people, with the hope of turning them to Christ and making them converts, yes?
Meanwhile, almost all of the converts (me being one of them) I have seen on the blogs and sites like this one, have vocally expressed that these things do not work, and it’s almost always pure Law and Gospel that gets through to us. All of us have been around the visual gimmicks, and yet %99 of the time, it never got through to us anyway.
Then people’s feelings get hurt, because the converts express this, as a free focus group and feedback arena. With the hopes of getting through to folks, from the side of experience.
I have no idea who these pastors are, and I am not making a judgment on the worth of the pastors involved. But it has to be said….this stuff doesn’t work.
I’m sure the truck is adorable, and maybe it can be used for something, like a parade or picnic. Rock on, go for it. But please, take these opinions and experiences as just that, and hopefully people can see it’s not about hurting others, but some actual critique on what it was like being non-Christian, and how these things did pretty much nothing to conversion. Isn’t that the goal? To find things that work?
Maybe some pastors should read up on people conversion stories, and take it from there.
I really hope and pray this disconnect between more life-long Lutherans (not everyone of course, but in this case I see it glaringly) , and the average American pagan somehow gets resolved.
There are many conversion stories, including mine, up at Word and Sacrament, and I think they are on the WT site now also.
Please take this all in love, I just don’t know how to get this through to people without being blunt. Sometimes it’s like hitting my head against a brick wall.
“In response to:”
Rev. Giese, I presume this is addressed to my comments, although something seems to have been lost in translation.
“Worship for me is enjoyable and always has been.”
Granted that in some sense, the Divine Service may be called fun and/or easy. But my point is whether the fire truck is fun and easy in the same way that the Divine Service is. I highly doubt it, based on your explanation (which is a fine explanation of the Divine Service, by the way). If not, then it still sounds like there is some form of bait and switch going on. I’m sure it’s not intentional on your part, but the fact remains: You’re displaying a fire truck, but delivering Jesus.
“The truck is simply a means to start the conversation that leads to proclamation.”
Granted. But as such, the fire truck is neither necessary, nor is it evangelism.
In hearing your explanations, you sound like a fine Confessional gentleman. I have assumed that your Divine Service is chock full of Law and Gospel and Sacrament and all the good stuff. That was never my issue. If I gave that impression through clumsy words, I sincerely apologize.
Of course, a fire truck is not “necessary” nor is technically evangelism. Still with the news article and other PR there are more people in the area that know there is a Lutheran Church around if they decide they are in need of a church. They also perhaps got the impression that this church likes children.
In some areas of the South, this is an accomplishment in itself.
Getting back to the details:
The article says that a firetruck “repurposed to be a witness tool in the community.”
One might interchange words as synonyms and understand the word “tool” in the same sense as “means.” I realize that you would object to referring to the firetruck as a means of grace. I think that you find it perfectly plausible and acceptable to us a firetruck as a means to the means. And besides firetrucks, then anything and everything which gives Christians the opportunity to draw in people by appealing to their interests but then attempting to engage them with Law and Gospel. Or is there some point where you would draw the line? “It’s okay to use billboards and firetrucks to catch people’s interest, but advertising ‘Pure Sex’ or billboards which say ‘Your Church Sucks, signed, Satan’ is going a bit too far.”
Well, Pastor Giese, who are you to judge others who say that they use such things to draw people in when you yourself have “repurposed” a firetruck? After all, those Lutherans don’t want to replace the Means of Grace either. They just want an opportunity to proclaim the Gospel. (Apparently, Law and Gospel don’t work very well on their own. If we can only come up with ideas like firetrucks to attract people attention, we are much more effective evangelists who can work with fun and ease.”
Let me give another example. The LCMS a few years back had a hot-air balloon in the shape of the synodical logo. I assume that their rationale was roughly similar to your firetruck idea. How much did that balloon cost in terms of purchase price, upkeep, and operation? If it was such a great idea to draw people into an opportunity to hear the Gospel, then where is it today? Or did we learn that the costs of owning and operating a logo-shaped hot air balloon wasn’t such a great idea after all — it cost a lot of money and it didn’t really bring that many people to Christ.
Pastor Giese, you are quoted as saying: “The idea is simple. People, children especially, like fire trucks. They will come to see the truck and we have the opportunity to speak about Jesus. As the vehicle moves to and from events, it acts like a rolling billboard. I believe it will spark interest. The best part is that it is easy and fun. Who knew that easy and fun could be used to describe Evangelism?!”
Are these words an accurate expression of what you said?
I, for one, (unabashedly embarrassed that someone who claims to be “confessional” would avail himself of this kind of stratagem), am still amazed when you say that evangelism is easy and fun. Wow. Let a man deny himself and take up his cross. I don’t think even the apostle Paul ever came to the realization that evangelism was easy and fun. As I read the accounts in Acts and the Epistles (especially the Pastoral Epistles), I don’t see anything there as being easy and fun — any more than I see the apostles and prophets ever using any witnessing tools than are on par with people’s natural interest in firetrucks. I don’t believe for one moment that evangelism is easy and fun. But I do know that there is deep and great joy when one sinner repents.
You not only say that evangelism is easy and fun but also the Divine Service: “By grace, Jesus has made the Divine Service easy for you and me. By grace, we celebrate what He has done for us and receive the pardon that His Body and Blood have won. As such, you better believe that the Divine Service is ‘easy and fun’ for you and for me.”
I would certainly like to be charitable towards you, but I find this language to be utterly naive and irresponsible. When a dear child of God confesses to his pastor (publicly or privately) the dirty, stinking, rotten sins which have entangled him, when tears and snot and sweat come pouring out and then I announce the forgiveness of Christ, I bear his burdens with him confidentially, I NEVER come away thinking, “Boy, that was easy and fun!” I am drained and tearful knowing what agony that sin has wrought. I know that this child of God’s conscience and the consequences of his sin don’t just disappear even though they are washed away in the blood of the Lamb.
The proclamation of Law and Gospel is blessed but it is not fun. It is the way of the cross which is not easy and fun. It is suffering and hardship, not in the sense of masochism, but in the sense that our Lord and His disciples suffered. The Scriptures clearly state in numerous places that sorrow is better than laughter. Repentance is not fun. Forgiveness is joyful and blessed, but not easy and fun. I enjoy levity as much as anyone and don’t go around moping and somber all the day, but I reject the notion that evangelism is easy and fun.
Unlike Rev. Eckert, I don’t think you sound like a find Confessional gentleman at all. I think you sound like a well-intentioned, caring pastor who wants to be confessional but relies on firetrucks to make evangelism and the Divine Service easy and fun.
When the firetruck has ceased to serve its purpose, when it is no longer attracting the interest of people and when you have to move on to some other kind of “opportunity” to present the Gospel, I certainly hope that you have some sort of rite to decommission it, to repurpose it for whatever rather than let such a wonderful witness tool that makes evangelism easy and fun just rust away on some lot.
Actually, I think the firetruck could be redeemed if you would ship it to Africa and let it be used for the thing which the Lord God actually intended it to be. A firetruck.
And I will continue to pray that you stop defending firetruck evangelism and live in the theology of the cross. When you have done that, I will be delighted to put it all behind and strive toward that which lies ahead in Christ together with you.
The fact remains that you cannot proclaim Law and Gospel to bare walls. There have to be people there to proclaim it to.
Like the multitude that came to the sound of the rushing wind. The sound of the rushing wind was not Law and Gospel. It was not evangelism.
The theology of the cross does not mean that we cannot rejoice greatly in the Lord and praise Him each day and each Divine Service for the perfect salvation He has provided. It would hope that your members would go away from each service rejoicing in the salvation of the Lord.
On the other hand, I had a Church of Christ lady visit our church a few times. She quit coming. She said that it was not right that we should leave the church happy. Instead we should leave the church feeling guilty so that we would try to do better.
I pray that the Lord may bring joy to your heart also so that you may rejoice in the privilege of your ministry.
Rev. Brondos.
It is clear you have your opinion. Thank you for sharing.
It is not I who judge, nor is it my place…there is but One who has the authority to judge.
I will likewise be praying for you.
Your brother in Christ,
Pastor Giese
(raising hand somewhat timidly from the fringes of the fray) …. The thing that burned me up (heh) about the aritcle was the dorky “repurposing” noun-verb. Now, reading a lot of the posts here, but not all of them, I will say that to me, the fire truck is a tool like a fitness center is a tool, or a daycare is a tool, or evangelism visitors are a tool, or a person’s smile and general outgoing attitude is a tool.
It is something that draws a person toward you with a neutral-to-positive attitude, at which time you can tell them the good news. Some of us have the smiles and personalities that are all we need. Others of us need signs or community gyms or the abovementioned other services.
What’s important is that we tell the good news.
As for “easy and fun” being a bad thing because those who have been persecuted vilely for their faith did not have an “easy and fun” time, c’mon. The more you do something, the easier it often becomes. And “fun,” however it’s defined, can be put into any activity, even telling the good news. Maybe “joyful” would be another, better modifier.
Some times we witness in hushed tones, in the middle of sorrow and bereavement, befuddlement. Some times we witness when our hearts are lighter.
God bless you, Pastor Giese; pretty admirable to come to a mostly hostile place, identify yourself and talk freely. God bless the rest of you, too, because your words are heartfelt.
(Just …. don’t verb any nouns, if you can help it….)
I can’t think of a time when, as an unbeliever, I cared a whit about what anyone had to say about Jesus.
When I was an unbeliever, and hence not a churchgoer, I pretty much denied any Christian any opportunity to witness to me.
If, in spite of my cold shoulder, they pressed on, I thought they were the rudest, most intrusive, most insensitive people in the world.
Now, as a believer, I still feel that way. I feel that, without a suggestion from a person that he’s seeking Christ or seeking forgiveness or just interested in a church, it’s not only rude, but completely useless of me to start up a conversation about Jesus, or even about my church. Because, most times, the person will step away or otherwise show me his disinterest in what I have to say, and, most times, he’ll take offense that I should presume to know what he needs. If he engages me at all, it’ll be to tell me what hypocrites populate churches and he’s therefore sworn them off forevermore.
This has been both my own behavior and the behavior I’ve witnessed in others.
As a non-churchgoing parent, I’d have been more inclined to have kept my child away from that firetruck, if it meant he was going to have to listen to a lot of ‘God-talk’ just by climbing on it. I’d have resented like anything some grownup luring my child onto it, only for the purposes of pouring invitations to church into his ears, or telling him about his sins.
There is just something unseemly in this. Not in the motivation, I suppose, but in the endeavor itself.
A pastor once told me how his church had free donuts and coffee every morning, for whoever in the neighborhood would come for them. They served them in the church, and provided places for people to sit and enjoy their treats, while members of the church visited with them.
Then, promptly at the appointed hour, treat time ended and a morning church service began. People were invited to cross the little distance into the sanctuary for morning prayers and hymns and a homily by a vested pastor.
His point was, they were invited from the very first moment into the church building, and not to some other, unrelated venue.
Seems so simple, and so honest and earnest, and so free from any opportunity to accuse ‘bait and switch.’
Pastor Brondos, thank you for putting into words the very real experience, which mirrors my very own, of hearing the Gospel for the first time. It indeed was a gut wrenching, snot pouring out of my nose, feel like my heart was going to burst, sobbing mess.
This is what happens. I’m not alone in this experience.
There was nothing happy-dappy about it. It was a homecoming, but it hurt.
Blessings to you.
I find myself endeared to Susan’s words, particularly because she speaks from the crowds that we are often so interested in reaching. I also believe she has reillustrated my point:
There is service.
There evangelism.
Christians MUST serve –> for the sake of service!
And Christians MUST evangelize –> for the sake of evangelism!
One of the wrinkles in our current culture is that it is post-evangelized. Those who are unbelievers actually believe they have heard the message. (Often they have not. They have eaten vanilla with poison in it. But that doesn’t change they’re point of view on it.)
What the culture does NOT see is Christians out there doing works of service simply for the sake of the service. (Except for homosexual and minority rites lobbyists, of course. ;D) This is half the reason they find our message abominable. (Check out “Unchristian” on Amazon.com) They can’t stand the strings attached. Or, like my Church Council voiced tonight, we are all too often looking for new members so they can put money in the plate, and they know it!
It is a conundrum of culture, and that is my second point.
One way a baptist theologian I was reading the other day (blanch!) put it, is that we are working from a model of “attraction” rather than “conversion.” We want to get people to come to us, rather than being ready, able and willing to go to them – that is, to *actually* speak about Jesus in real life – at home, at the store, etc. This is a post-Constintian thinking (for those of you familiar with Hauwerwas – who predicted this problem years ago!)
I honestly have to say I like the idea of sending firetrucks to Africa. I also like the idea of a community firetruck used for all sorts of fun.
I’m concerned about the idea of evangelism tools other than the Ten Commandments and the Creed, et al. These are the tools I see my people almost completely *unable* to wield. I can give them all the opportunities in the world to “tell the good news about Jesus” but I’m not sure they know what it is. “Jesus loves you,” is not the Gospel, and the pagan says, “So what? And stay away from my kids!”
Hopefully you can see that I’m not exactly on either side of the issue here, yet I think it is imperative that the how’s and why’s of service and evangelism be rightly distinguished among us, for the sake of justification, for the sake of the evangel, and even for the sake of real, selfless service.
As Susan, the ex pagan, points out, as long as we attach strings to our non-Divine services, the people who we really want to reach will only continue to be affirmed in their hardened belief that they need to stay as far away from us as possible.
As to an online, public debate on who is and is not confessional, I’m afraid we do all of ourselves a disservice. The devil-ridden medium of eTalk simply is not a good court.
Therefore, I sincerely and heartily and even, yes, “vigorously” appeal to all of us to endeavor to restrict our comments here to reasonable talk, leaving as much emotion to prayer and confession of sins as regenerated-humanly possible (and that means, proofread!) Remember, it is not only you and I who see us speaking to each other. Here, it is the entire world. By OUR words they will judge us. If we act in “only a human way,” all the “evangelism” in the world will do us little good, for we will find that we ourselves have divorced ourselves from the freedom of what we preach.
As always, two cents – which today is worth even less than it was yesterday! VOTE RON PAUL! LOL!
I do think Americans are lacking in the personal touch department , mainly because of the technology around. And unfortunately, the Lutheran community is even more reserved, (this coming from an Italian-American from Jersey), and that reserved behavior is a bit foreign to people like me.
So go make more Italian and maybe Hispanic friends. I don’t know, communities of people who like to engage in conversation. It’s normal for us, but it seems painful for others.
Have a few shots, unwind a bit, and go meet people. Look for baked ziti parties.
You think I’m joking? I’m not. And stop looking for the magical equation in all this. Get off the computer, and get out there. Without a meeting, without a plan, JUST GO OUTSIDE.
Marron.
I am glad to see that Matt Gunia has also come to vouch for our dear brother Joel.
As in every aspect of his life, Joel has conducted himself admirably in this forum. His responses have been in concord with concord, Concordia, the Scriptures, and Christ.
If you still disagree with the fire engine idea, fine.
But, cut the man some slack. To use the language of our confessions, conceal, forgive, overlook, yield, pardon, put on the best construction. Joel has done plenty of this in this forum out of Christian love. Do the same for him.
Rev. Giese asks:
If there is something truly and fundamentally wrong with using a tool such as the truck or a billboard, or a sign out front of your church to get people to ask questions and perhaps have the opportunity to tell them about the need for a savior and the Work of Christ, what is it?
Short answer – No (if the issue is isolated to the truck itself)
But the truck does not exist in a vacuum. It is symptomatic of an attitude that pervades western Christianity and has crept into and imbedded itself in the minds even of those who are conservative/confessional/traditional. It is evidenced in the responses of those who wish to defend the use of the truck:
“What I see is that pastors and leadership have failed in the last 40 years to motivate Lutheran congregations to get out the front door to let people know that there is more than just vanilla Non-Denominationalism out there. We have real meat and potato food, which is confessional Lutheranism. ” – Rev. Giese
“The fact remains that you cannot proclaim Law and Gospel to bare walls. There have to be people there to proclaim it to.” – Richard Lewer
In the LCMS we still have the “real meat”, the Law and Gospel, but in general we no longer trust God to deliver it to those he calls. I believe that God draws people to Himself through His Word despite our best efforts to do it for Him. If our ‘marketing’ efforts fail, the stones will cry out . The Word goes out with us, not because we are friendly/fun/eloquent/ or savvy advertisers but because God is in us. His Word will not return empty. If we focus on Word and Sacrament ministry we will be motivated (appropriately, by the Gospel, not Law) and it will not be proclaimed to bare walls. God will provide the opportunities to witness in the vocations to which He has called us. He will call and gather his people where the Gospel is rightly preached and the sacraments rightly administered. We can rely on it. It most certainly true.
I don’t think I would have done the fire truck thingie, even in my younger days. But I do wonder what it would have been like to have one of my younger days attempts at bright ideas held up for e-scrutiny. Bible studies that no one attended, hymns that no one could sing, youth events that foundered, VBS themes that flopped, home visits to people who were avoiding me. Things that break your heart and make you throw up your hands in disgust, things that drive you to your knees in repentance and prayer saying ‘Lord I don’t know if I can do this anymore.” Please pray for your shepherds, they’re praying for you.
There was an interesting point made about conversion vs. attraction. This coming sunday’s A series gospel speaks of that (Matthew 10:5, 21-33). The disciples are told three times do not fear. Why should they be afraid? Because what they are proclaiming and whom they are proclaiming will evoke a response, sometimes a hostile response. Life is hazardous for the disciple. The rejection of Jesus often comes in the rejection of the disciple. The silencing of the gospel often comes in the form of silencing the disciple. We’d like to say ‘let me tell you about Jesus,’ and avoid the inherent risk of rejection and even insult. No, the world sees you as Christ’s body, and the world did not treat Christ’s body particularly well did it?
People who are converted as adults know the gospel of Matthew chapters 9 and 10 well, they’ve lived it, when friends no longer want to be around you because you’re no fun, or they suppose you’ll no longer be fun, because you’re judgmental, though you’ve scarecly said a word, because you’re a hypocrite since you were just like them a month ago,. Converts know what its like to have an unbelieving spouse and children how painful and sometimes dangerous that can be. Yet the Lord taught us, there’s no substitute for his disciples being there.
LHM has a float every year in the Rose Bowl parade. The volunteers who build it are said to be a witness to the others who are engaged in the same endeavor. I like to see it, (even though LHM does not impress me as much as it once did.)
The small town “confessional” church I belonged to had a float in an annual parade.
My son indulged his passion for fire trucks by being Chaplain, driver, radioman and more in the local Volunteer Fire Dept. The chief and half the VFD belonged to his congregation. Others provided opportunities for witness.
If Pastor Giese has a Lutheran liturgical service in his church, (and nobody has said that he doesn’t) it is possible some of you are overreacting. He says that “Ablaze!” was there when he arrived.
I would consider that his fire truck might be a subtle comment on the program. :)
This is not a “clown service”; this is something going on outside the church. When he starts conducting revival meetings in the park with “decisions for Christ” and the truck as a backdrop, I’ll start to worry about him.
I don’t like verbed nouns…but it’s possible the newsletter is at fault there.
I want to personally apologize to the pastor and congregation of St. John’s for my two recent comments on this matter. The remarks I made were in a spirit of unnecessary hostility and poor taste. For this, I ask Pr. Giese’s forgiveness.
Perhaps the specific thing that disgusts me about the direction of movements in the LCMS as a church body is that we can’t agree on a simple matter of a fire truck. We constantly split hairs over how to categorize, justify, condemn, or simply live with it. Sadly, in our American culture, a discussion like this is precisely what drives the under-churched public away from us Lutherans.
Rev. Giese is right in saying that we have not been proactive in spreading the word that we have a “meat & potatoes” worship life. I’m not defending the use of the fire truck, but I think a more unified, concise, and clear message about who God is, what His Son did for us on the cross, and how we respond in praise and thanksgiving to His work is better conveyed without something that can be classified by the drive-by public as a “gimmick.”
Pastor Giese, I hope the Word sent out from your congregation achieves the purpose for which it was sent, with or without a fire truck.
Rev. Giese,
I am glad to hear that everyone who sees the truck knows it is a Lutheran church fire truck and will not be mislead. Therefore, they can approach it at their own risk knowing that they may be witnessed to if they come near. :o) I am sorry for putting the worse construction on this and calling this evangelism method a bait and switch.
I’m not sure why I am offended by one of our LCMS church’s owning a fire truck. I am sure it has something to do with my sinful cynical nature and I guess I am just burned out on all of man’s inventive ways of trying to get our foot in the door to save those who are not in our church. I believe that when you preach God’s Law and Gospel and serve the Sacraments it changes the hearts of people and as a result they serve their neighbor. From my experience Jesus leads people to His Church after they been served by one of their christian neighbors. I know the Holy Spirit can use a conversation about Jesus’ life, death and resurrection to lead someone to Christ and His Church. I have no doubt that a fire truck can cause people to meet and get to know each other so I pray that Jesus will use His new fire truck to bring a lot of lost people into contact with Himself, His people and His words of eternal life.
Rev. Giese,
You write: “It is clear you have your opinion. Thank you for sharing. It is not I who judge, nor is it my place…there is but One who has the authority to judge.”
Here are a couple of other things for which you may also think me for sharing:
We ought to judge those inside the Church, e.g. 1 Cor. 5:10 — a judgment which does not wait until Judgment Day (1 Peter 4:17), though we ought not be judgmental nor condemn others self-righteously (Matthew 7). We ought to discern between things that are salutary and things that are not. We ought to test the spirits (1 John 4:1) — and where there are those who believe and teach things which are contrary to the right handling of God’s Word we are to sharply rebuke and admonish (Titus 1:13).
You ought to judge me and rebuke me according to the Word of God if you are convinced of what you believe, teach and practice — not on the basis of opinion but on the basis of the Word of God, the Confessions even the saints who have preceded us. You should tell me, “Pastor Brondos, it is wrong of you to speak disparagingly about the use of firetrucks to present opportunities to promote the Gospel,” or “Pastor Brondos, it is wrong for you to say that evangelism and the Divine Service is not easy and fun.” As a pastor, you have a divine mandate to do so just as Paul judged and rebuked Peter (Gal. 2:11) and Peter described Paul’s writings as difficult to understand (2 Pet. 3:16). Then, all may be edified.
But instead of responding to the detailed premises of my argument, you simply tell me that you aren’t going to judge met and say that you are going to pray for me. That’s very pious of you, but I have to say that I wonder what it is for which you will be praying? That I have a missional heart? I already have a deep compassion for the lost — and that is precisely why I respond so sharply to the business of firetruck pre-evangelism and references to evangelism as being “fun and easy.” Will you pray that I am able to be more kind and gentle? With lay people who don’t know any better, I certainly am that — but I also don’t want to go against God’s Word in dealing with someone who has been ordained and installed and allowed himself to be set up as an example for the Church to follow.
I don’t believe I have called you any names — even though I did call into question the name “confessional” which has been used about you, not intending to get into a petty argument about who may rightly bear that name. Still, in my readings of the Scriptures, Chrysostom, the Confessions, Luther, Chemnitz, Sasse, Elert, Hamann, Pieper, Walther, Loehe, Loescher, Wynecken, Craemer, Korby, Nagel, and the like, I find it remarkable that none of them have EVER encouraged pastors to resort to things in order to use them as an “opportunity” for proclaiming the Gospel. Am I willing to admit that possibly you as a confessional pastor living in the 21st Century have happened onto something that those men never thought of doing? Not yet. But perhaps you’d like to offer some concrete examples for consideration.
Finally — and I am not trying to be facetious here — I would really like to know what words, what evangelism technique, you use to approach someone who has come to see a firetruck and you want to proclaim the Gospel. Really. I am willing to be taught. I am not such a good evangelist that I cannot learn something from others.
Do you tell them that there is a God who loves them? Do you tell them that Jesus died for their sins? Do you simply invite them to church and Sunday School?
And I want to know if, in your presentation, the Gospel precedes the Law. Does the word of repentance come prior to the proclamation of God’s love and forgiveness? I have read the accounts in Acts many times where Peter and Paul are proclaiming the Word of God to unbelievers. I believe that the call to repentance comes before the proclamation of the Gospel.
I have been a pastor for about 24 years now. I have studied methodistic practices in the history of our church and I have seen them attempted time and again, e.g. the synodical logo hot-air balloon. In my younger years, I most certainly did things which I would by no means attempt today, though I never was interviewed to be an example to the whole church for those things, thank goodness. The fact that you were interviewed was not your fault. It was the fault of others in our church body who think that the use of everything from food to social events creates opportunities to proclaim the Gospel.
But the fact of the matter is this: no one has to resort to extraordinary things or activities to promote the Gospel, things that cost money and time for upkeep. They have just as much propensity to offend and deter as they do to attract. We don’t have to do things in a big way when we haven’t mastered doing them in small ways, i.e., people simply talking to their neighbors, classmates, and co-workers.
Rev. Brondos,
For a counter to your posts that is based on Scripture and the Confessions, please see Christopher Jackson’s post above.
Rev Brandos –
Since you wish correction, I’d ask you to look at the “rebuke sharply” story of Titus 1:13 again:
For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced, since athey are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them esharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.
As such, if you’re going to cite this passage to support “sharply rebuking” Rev Giese, then you need to make a case for how your brother in the ministry is “devoting himself to Jewish mythes and the commands of people who turn away from the truth” as related in Titus 1:14 rather than laying into him with a literary cudgel.
Since I don’t think you’re devoting yourself to Jewish myths, I can’t rebuke you sharply, so my apologies for not acceding to your request. :)
As for the notion that the Christian life & witnessing is not “easy and fun”, what about Matt 11:30 where Christ Himself says “For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Surely if God Himself says something, it must be true – no?
Philippians 4:11ff tells the story of the lesson Paul learned, which people in modern-day Christianity would do well to learn today:
“I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. I can do all things through him who strengthens me.”
Now if Paul can learn this kind of contentment after everything he’d been through, then so can we as believers today.
As such, instead of focusing on our sin, and our suffering, and our work, and how badly we’ve messed things up, we can do as Paul did and be content in all situations and learn to walk in God’s strength, rather than trying to do God’s work with our own strength.
Will there be unpleasantness and suffering in a Christian’s life? Certainly, but that’s not the sum total of our lives. And even when things get difficult, there is still cause for rejoicing just like how the disciples rejoiced that they were counted worthy to suffer for the Name. (Acts 5:41)
Ooops – made a mistake – the last 3 paragraphs weren’t supposed to be bolded. (Perhaps Mollie can fix it for me? Please & Thanks? :)
It wasn’t easy as pie, and it wasn’t fun as a firetruck, to be martyred or faced with martyrdom.
It wasn’t without care, it wasn’t without pain, it wasn’t without heartbreak and abandonment.
It wasn’t easy like simple addition or a second grade spelling bee. It was — is — easy in that it was and is a simple, uncomplicated, narrow road we are on, are to stay upon, are stayed upon.
That contentment Paul spoke of wasn’t without being mindful of duty or attitude or means; maybe why it required for him so much prayer.
I suspect you have rather misused the words ‘easy’ and ‘content’, and perhaps the verses containing those words as well. They don’t refer to child’s play, but to the path that we know is simple in its requirements, but that leads through fiery trials.
It’s not the contentment of a job well done or a day well spent, but of knowing what the job is, whatever the circumstances, and knowing who will help us do it, and help us through those often horrifying circumstances.
The:
I won’t judge you and I’m praying for you….
That’s really a low call. It’s not a charitable notion no matter how you dress it.
It says, :
I don’t have a more convincing argument, I’ll call you a judger even though backhandedly, I’ll define myself as superior, deflect from myself, and I’ll add to it, that I’m the one in the right and elevated and “I’ll pray for you” making the assumption God is in YOUR corner. Really, is it really an honest – I wish you well- prayer? Or are you compounding an insult by wishing God would tell you I’m right and you are wrong? Perhaps only the speaker knows, but it’s walking a worn path.
That doesn’t even pass kindergarden acceptability.
The fire engine, a lot of things done by a lot of churches over a lot of the past, does gain attention. Not many spend that much money (assumed) on a tenuous opportunity to gain some attention. Was that money really well spent? Well maybe or maybe not to you. That you give the appearance of banking something as important evangelism on such a thing, without any other feedback, the point of your quote in the article about it is your tool seemingly….. when that is the only thing we see…. does raise some flags.
The objection, and don’t be naive about it, is how it appears the church is banking on– “this wonderful evangelism tool– what slaps me in the face is stewardship and when we (admit it, a lot of us do this) take a pet project and DEFINE EVANGELISM DOWN to our pet project. It gives on the face of it ,that the project has to be there or evangelism can’t happen.
Admit it, we have all seen it in a lot of places, in a lot of ways, in all our churches. We have all faced it….. I have to have my pet project for the sake of evangelism.
This is a thing a lot of us face, not with a fire engine as the object, we all have our own objects. That it is a fire truck, AND that the pastor has EXPRESSED the leaning on this as an evangelism tool, is what sends up our flags. But we all have our little fire engines here and there. We all need to recognize such things for what they are.
I am also aware however, that on the fly of a moment, in an interview, when pumped about a project, taking a quote and blog critiquing it can seem like and be like overkill reaction. Perhaps we see this in ourselves and we react.
So why don’t we think about it? When do we all let our pet projects seem like **a must have evangelism tool** ?
And how do we react, not do evangelism at all or go for must have pet projects? Where is the balance? Are some of us even looking for that balance?
I’ve run across folks who want to spend THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS for a media project, just because otherwise a part of the target audience won’t get the Word. REALLY? Is that REALLY true?
I’m a media person (no not pro) , and I personally contributed a lot, I do like to have the job well done, but would I claim we HAVE TO HAVE it? No, I ** LIKE*** to have it, am blessed to get it, and am happy to contribute, but I don’t have to have it all
( ok… to do it at all I do have to have something)
But to use it as a club to HAVE TO HAVE? The club I object to, and I’m not saying the firetruck was ever used that way, you probably don’t think in terms of HAVE TO HAVE, some of us might have reaction to it seeing it that way though.
And perhaps that is the – reaction- I’m getting from such things. The conveyance that I HAVE TO HAVE this to do God’s Word, maybe that is the flag raiser.
It’s an old debate, should we have gold inlaid cathedrals while the people on the street starve? Or the other extreme,, do we do wonderful stuff for ourselves… and then only do the minimum and at God’s house shouldn’t God have the best. What is the best?
It’s an age old issue.
Concern is perhaps when we do attention getting things, have we really examined our motivation, and how much are we plowing into a pet project for the sake of the pet and not God’s project. How well do we represent God with our projects?
This is hard to tell from the outside, but it is also flag raising, when that appearance is coming from the shepherd himself , and is ALL we see. However church work does not have to be dower. Hitting on the word “fun” may not be that justified.
But …. we all in one way or another … often fall into this. Even unaware.
It’s the building it into a club of “I must have” and the wisdom of all decisions (ad boards) that I would question. Stewardship and what we convey as important to the public, when it isn’t primarily reflecting God and his Word as that important thing.
Nowhere did anyone say “have to have.” It was more like, “It might be a good idea.”
Why don’t you guys go on and do your own evangelism and let another people try to do nice things for their community?
Synod is an advisory body but some people actually think they are in charge of other congregations.
I am going to my granddaughter’s high school graduation. I will let you “slippery slope” people work it out. Go ahead and attack your brothers in Christ and misrepresent the good work they are trying to do. I am beginning to see why some people voted for Pres. K instead of us.
Lou,
Some good points.
I do however deeply regret your take on my last.
The judging comment was simply in response to the demand to know who am I to judge. The statement of prayer was simply that, a sincere statement of prayer and nothing else. In the end, so to the fire truck; it is simply a fire truck.
The pages above are evidence of the folly of this kind of venue. Words put on “paper” in this manner are so often and easily taken for something that they are not. Often statements are made intentionally or un-intentionally that have no real basis in truth or the reality of the situation.
Ironically, to me, it clearly proves the need for the program that would have (perhaps) addressed it, Issues Etc… where a verbal exchange is held. Tone and inflection is heard and the meaning of words more easily discerned and clarified under the guidance of one who is a skilled moderator and host.
But to this point, I must agree with the sentiment that Susan made above and state that there is work to be done. I have a congregation to look after and like every pastor mistakes to make and prayers requesting forgiveness to bring before my Lord. Perhaps in a few years we will see if the fire truck is one of these, OR if I am praying in thanks giving that the Holy Spirit somehow uses it to further the Kingdom.
Brothers and Sisters, God bless you as you go forth according to God’s will.
Respectfully,
Pastor Giese
Joel,
The tone of your posts are very gentlemanly, even in the midst of personal attacks. Thank you.
Richard,
I did not say any one said “have to have”, but it is what comes across often in attitude when we have a pet project. And sometimes we DO get carried away above and over the actual purpose with our projects.
A lot of our conflicts are how we come across to the others. If you re-read my post, there is no synodical group side taking. And yes I did raise a lot of questions that are not black and white, that does not always denote a slippery slope, and no life is not black and white all the time. Our hope and salvation are not grayscale, but how we service our brother can take many forms, and can have motivations good and bad all mixed in. We are sinners.
It does make a difference if the fire truck is the Whole evangelism program, or just a side endevour.
Rev. Giese does have a right to take umbrage at what I did say about him.
Rev Giese,
yes, the part about the praying was strong worded, too strong, and for coming on too strong, I do apologize, it did bring out that is not what you meant but at early hours should have thought of another way..
I have seen the “I’ll pray for you” used in conflict , and the “I won’t discuss things with you” far too often in Christian relationships, sometimes even cruelly, it’s good to know that is not what you meant. Some do use it in that fashion…. and mean it. Anyone who makes an accusation, does need to listen when the person says it is not so. And that includes blogs.
It can be a dirty passive aggressive ploy, glad it was not. And I greatly respect that you addressed it.
Yes, I agree, written media is hard, especially when we write as we talk in such media…. and assume more than we know that people understand exactly what we are saying. When we are on totally different wavelengths.
How we do evangelism is something we all do need to think about. With EVERY project it must be asked, is the project achieving the goal of pure telling of God’s Word, is it the best representation of Christ in the church, is the money spent good stewardship. But sometimes the differences that surprise us, are not what they seem.
Lou Ann
I have received a personal e-mail from Pastor Giese and wanted to say that I greatly appreciate his candor and willingness to discuss the controverted issue.
He shows a great deal more courage and integrity than many I have known. Even in adversarial situations (a good debate always has the character of being adversarial), I respect men like Pastor Giese — and sometimes the result is all the more fraternal.
I also appreciate the opportunity to wrestle with these vital matters in the public forum. I am fully aware that it may be difficult for the uninitiated to handle and for that reason sometimes it must be squelched . . . or at least taken “outside.”
I want to thank Pastor Giese for his efforts.
Lastly, I’d like to ask participants in this dialogue to consider a sentence from the Brief Doctrinal Statement of the LCMS adopted in 1932: “Whatever activities do not either directly apply the Word of God or subserve such application we condemn as ‘new methods,’ unchurchly activities, which do not build, but harm the Church.”
What does it mean to “subserve” the Word of God?
What were the “new methods” or “unchurchly activities” condemned by this official church doctrine?
If it is inappropriate to wrestle with the issue here, please join me tomorrow at blogstuhl.blogspot.com where the article will be posted. (Or else let me know where the debate will ensue so that I can follow along.)
Rev. Br -
(warning, *sarcasm ahead!*)
Since when does doctrine adopted by the LCMS have any bearing on anything! You’re just being a Pharisee!
:D
Otherwise, I’m glad to see the tension of this public forum lessoning. This is good. This is “walking together.” My prayers are with Rev. Giese and Rev. Brondos and us all as we wrestle away in the true evangelical theology of the cross.
(And, by that “I’m praying for you, I mean that you’re all obviously going to hell because you don’t think as clearly as I do.)
http://www.spurgeon.org/images/pyromaniac/TeamPyro/e-s_061.jpg
:D!
Is this the best construction? Are we looking for the good, the right, the beneficial? Do we believe that a brother has erred and needs to be corrected? Are we correcting them rightly?
Lets call a spade a spade. The fire truck is nothing but an attention grabing object. Are we supposed to be using attention grabing objects to draw people to God?
At best it is an attention grabbing way to draw people closer to the people in the church. It gives the members an opportunity to witness to others.
However, if there is no real witness by the members of the congregation, then all the attention grabbing opportunity is lost. And, sadly, that is usually the case.
I too, like Mollie, liken this to the LCMS balloon ministry. And, for the most part, the benefit is only as good as the witness of the members of the local congregation. From there, it is all Law and Gospel.
I do not know the men involved. And, I do not pretend to understand their logic in purchasing a fire truck. But, if this method works, what does it say to and about the people who are reaching out and what does it say to and about those being reached? What does it say about our God?
My God doesn’t need a fireb truck to reach the lost.
B -
It is a shame that we criticize one another about their creative ideas. All this type of criticism seems to be of the devil since it does not proclaim the love and forgiveness of Christ, even for fellow pastors who need love and forgiveness more than any because they must deal with such petty people. Shame that the Law and condemnation is more useful to some than the Gospel when they are to be held together. What would Brother Martin say when those who claim his name do not “put the best construction on everything,” including a fire truck. Indeed, would our Lord say to such phariseeisms.
Mollie, et. al., I love this website and I check it at least 10 times a day. However, I’m becoming disappointed with many of the comments here.
Mollie, you expressed a similar distaste in an earlier post. However, when you post an article under the title “Cringe Inducing”, you are attaching an immediate negative connotation to the contents of the article. You are inviting the reader to be upset, or to “cringe” when they read the article. I understand that “Cringe Inducing” is your opinion and that you have every right to voice your opinion. However, I would not be shocked at negative opinions being shared when the title invites negative opinions. Do you have a way to moderate the comments, a la WT?
Rev. Brondos, with all due respect (and you’re due much), I believe that you asked for an opinion on where to carry on the debate, and my opinion is that you should carry it on personally with Pastor Geise, perhaps coming to an agreement, and then posting it here. I appreciate and respect your comments and demands for doctrinal integrity and staying true to the Word. However, it’s frustrating and destructive for me (at least in this particular article) to see two ordained men–leaders in the church–who have never met each other taking shots at each other in what I perceive as a war of words and personal debating. I know we can always backtrack and say that we lost something in translation because of the medium–I debate online with atheists all the time. When a brother in Christ starts chiming in with an opinion that is heterodox, I contact him personally and instruct him. Then we come back together, united, and present a joined witness in Christ. We don’t have it out where everybody can see it; it can get very heated. I understand that there are times when it is necessary to publically rebuke public sin, and that the ablazeologue! made this a “public sin”, but that does not immediately entail publically rebuking it in a manner that may eventually turn out to be little more than propaganda–the very thing that many here seem to be arguing against. I find it much more effective when someone who was going down a wrong track comes out themselves and tells us so, when possible.
I am becoming more and more disappointed–even upset–at those who are disparaging the LCMS balloon minsitry: Lift High the Cross. Thanks to Issues, etc., I now know that there are problems with the methods and techniques used with the ministry. However, when I was a kid, I had the opportunity to be involved with the program. The family was wonderful. They had a love for ballooning that they decided to use for an explicit witness for the Cross–for Christ. It was their vocation. They were going to fly balloons whether there was a cross on the side or not. But because they wanted to use it for the church, many members of my local congregation, including many older members, were given the chance to do something they would have never done. They were given the chance to take a flight in a hot air balloon. They were given the chance to become acquainted with the stories of a missionary family who had traveled all over the U.S. (the world, if I’m not mistaken). They were given the chance to be trained in sharing Law & Gospel ministry (however short it was) with spectators. I had the opportunity (supervised) as a child to share the Law & Gospel with people who I otherwise may have never talked to (and yes, it was Law first, then Gospel–and it used God’s Word. I carried the card we had to hand out in my wallet until a few years ago). I know there are concerns to the methods, and probably will be great insulting comments to follow about allowing an un-ordained child to share the faith, but all I knew at the time was that I was having a great time sharing with strangers the thing that was most important to me–faith in our Savior Jesus Christ, who conquered sin, death, and the devil. Until I had met this family, I did not know that there were places for people to serve as a career in the church other than that of Pastor. The opportunity they provided for me to share my faith and the example they set for me as missionaries enouraged me to consider pursuing a career in churchwork.
I think that discussions like these are fruitful. I have learned from people on all sides of the issue. I do think using a firetruck for evangelism is cringe-inducing but I’m willing to be educated on the matter.
Why can’t we all just have a good, hearty discussion on the matter? I think the key is that no one get too tied to an opinion that they are not willing to be instructed.
In the meantime, let’s keep the discussion going for EVERYONE’s edification. And everyone please continue to work on being nice.
Ambiguity. That is its problem: its ambiguity.
It’s not entirely ‘bait and switch’ but it is baiting, and it lures people by means of something other than what it is about. The lure is completely irrelevant to the reason for the luring.
It seems an effort far too inclined to tell about ‘us’, rather than Him.
I certainly can’t say it’s wrong outright. But it doesn’t seem so very wise. More than anything, though, it’s unseemly, and it’s just too ambiguous.
The Church never asks, “What’s wrong with this?”
The Church always asks, “What’s right with this?”
The first question begins with the wrong; the second with the right.
Judge for yourselves.
I haven’t seen anyone being truly mean here, and truthfully, I think some are maybe too thin skinned.
If we can’t have a debate about a firetruck, then maybe we should just give up. ;-)
If I come up with any ideas that worked on me or any heathens I know, I will pass it on. None that I can think of right now. Other than people caring and reaching out.
And that’s free.
A community of believers standing together for the truth (Word and Confessions).
A community of believers that worships in Spirit and truth (Word and Spirit).
A community of believers receiving God’s gifts (Word and Sacraments).
A community of believers motivated by God’s gifts to care and reach out with the truth (Word and World).
It’s not brain surgery, but it does seem to be difficult for us to keep it in focus.
Todd wrote: “The Church always asks, “What’s right with this?”
The only thing I could come up with was that perhaps a fire truck would be useful for hosing down the Ablaze! smut and washing it into the city sewer system. :)
Seriously, I could only see how it obscured Christ and Hie glorious gospel. Wish I could say otherwise, but not. Please give me the unadulterated Jesus and leave the clowns and the fire trucks for those nutty bapto-pento-evangelicos who do not have the Lutheran confessions to guide them.
My previous comment comes from a popular misunderstanding of Christian freedom in the LCMS.
In the LCMS, Christian freedom now means I can do whatever I want, unless you have a Bible passage to stop me (and sometimes even that isn’t enough).
We’ve applied this misunderstanding officially and unofficially to worship, communion practice, polity –almost every aspect of our “walking together.” And it’s all done in the name of missions and evangelism.
But this misunderstanding of Christian freedom makes a mockery of *true synodos*, walking together. Now in the LCMS, walking together means everyone choosing his own direction, path and pace. Those of us who are concerned about it are called divisive, even schismatic. We’ve turned the idea of walking together completely on its head.
Christian freedom isn’t “I’m going to do what I please, and I you just try and stop me.” Christian freedom isn’t “I’m trying to reach the lost, screw you, fellow Christian.” That’s license, not freedom. License destroys Christian freedom and unity. License doesn’t serve the mission of the Church; it undermines it.
In his letter to the Livonians concerning worship and concord, Luther writes (the entire piece is rather brief and I commend the entire letter if you can get your hands on it):
“For even though from the viewpoint of faith, the external orders are free and can without scruples be changed by anyone at any time, yet from the viewpoint of love, you are not free to use this liberty, but bound to consider the edification of the common people, as St. Paul says, 1 Corinthians 14 [:40], “All things should be done to edify,” and I Corinthians 6 [:12], “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful,” and 1 Corinthians 8 [:1], “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.” Think also of what he says there about those who have a knowledge of faith and of freedom, but who do not know how to use it; for they use it not for the edification of the people but for their own vainglory.
“Now when your people are confused and offended by your lack of uniform order, you cannot plead, “Externals are free. Here in my own place I am going to do as I please.” But you are bound to consider the effect of your attitude on others. By faith be free in your conscience toward God, but by love be bound to serve your neighbor’s edification, as also St. Paul says, Romans 14 [15:2], “Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to edify him.” For we should not please ourselves, since Christ also pleased not himself, but us all.”
Actually, most concentrated evangelism efforts are of a cringe-inducing nature.
The alternative to having an evangelism program, maybe, is racking your brain trying to think of one that’s not been done. Why not do what’s been done?
For the same reason what’s been done has been abandoned:
Because it wasn’t *effective.*
But, we can claim another effort made, for the record.
Face it: we want to at least look effective, like we’re doing something, when we initiate any evangelism program. Mostly, though, we want to *feel* like we’re doing something, and see ourselves doing ’something.*’ Even if that’s the only result we see–that we did something.
What was it Luther said about our need to repent our good works?
I was struck by Pastor Geise’s statement that if one lost heart was won over in years to come, basically the firetruck evangelism had done its work. (I paraphrased that, sorry)
That is the same logic used all the time in evangelical circles. They will try any new gimmick, deny it is a gimmick and justify it however goofy or costly by the old “if just one person is saved” argument. We are all for saving souls. But I was involved in a church that abandoned it rather large, faithful choir to go for praise teams. So choir members were put out to pasture so to speak. Then we decided to put on three different big money production pageants per year. We did not charge admission hoping for “goodwill offerings” The cast members and musicians would rehearse these pageants for 3 months then hold performances anywhere from 4 days to 6 days and were worn out and lost all true meaning of the church holiday because were so into putting on our best performance for that “one lost soul” who might give his heart to God. Well, we never in about a 5 year period had one person say they came to our church because of our pageants. We even took our passion play to the beach on Montego Bay, Jamaica, built our stage, worked in 100+ degree weather, played to crowds of Rastifarians smoking pot every evening and had NO ONE come to the Lord. While evangelism is a wonderful thing, gimmicks and forcing God upon people doesn’t seem to work very well. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. I still think person to person relationships are the best tool the church can use to get people to want to darken the doors of a church, even in this day and age. People are not stupid. They can smell a ruse a mile away. It has been proven that the churches that use “rare” car shows to draw men just have men who to from church to church to see the cars. They rarely go inside the church. JMHO
Just want to say a few words from the perspective of a member of St. John’s in Farmville. The firetruck is a tool/a means to advertise our church at local community functions much like our handouts to our neighbors inviting them to our Lenten & Holy Week Services, or our door to door visits, or our sponsoring the Lutheran Hour on a local station. It is a tool to open the door, to say we are here, to let them know we have a Christian After School Program, and yes a way to start a conversation that may or may not lead to sharing the Gospel Message. No tool takes the place of face to face witnessing, but a tool does make it easier for hesitant people to be bolder.
It isn’t the only outreach we do at St. John’s. It is the only one that has gotten this much notice in the church at large.
I don’t believe our Pastor was saying that evangelism is always fun and easy for we know differently, but it is fun to walk in a parade with a colorful firetruck (float)
and show joy in being a child of God. It is easier to have a ready made opening if someone ask WHY we have a firetruck or WHAT does “Ablaze for Christ” mean.
I believe there were some harsh words written on this site and was glad to see some apologies in some of the latter comments. Pastor Giese has been a blessing from God for our congregation. His sermons do contain the Law and Gospel and his Bible Classes have been true to the Word.
He conducts a liturgical worship service. He is a warm and caring man who seems to love God, His family, and His church. He also sets a fine example of a husband and father for our men to follow.
I’m glad our people are happy over the firetruck which was given to us and pray that God will use this gift to be a blessing in our witnessing opportunities in the greater Farmville area. May it be a means for our people to grown in their boldness for the Lord.
Come Holy Spirit set our hearts ABLAZE to share your Word.
Shirley,
Thank you for your calm response. Continue your good work in peace and joy. We do have a whole Synod full of people who do see the need to show love to people in all kinds of ways and to share the blessings of God’s good creation and creativity.
Do not be discouraged and do not think that the negativity of some is widespread. I believe the Latin phrase is “Non illigitamatus carborundum.”
What an interesting choice of latin phrase: “non illigitamus carborundum” – the common translation of which is really not very pleasant; being rather derogatory in regard to the person(s) to whom the phrase is directed. Google the phrase to see this common translation…
The Army can be rather colorfully blunt, and we have a few Army vets in our clergy. I think that’s not a bad thing. :)
Maybe the topic is exhausted; things are getting repetitive.
(posted by request)
Go away for a few weeks and you miss all the good stuff…but really. Come on folks.
Okay, so a congregation gets a fire truck. So the pastor it trying to use it in a positive way. So they hope that something novel will spur interest and get some conversations started. So they hope that God will see fit to use the truck to create a chance to speak the Word to someone who might not normally hear it. Get over it.
Personally, I love the fact that they are using a FIRETRUCK for Ablaze. Hello! A blaze is a fire. What do fire trucks do? They put out fires. HA! I love it! Have none of you even seen this. Intending to or not, this guy has made more of a statement about Ablaze than any of your best blogs will ever do! Holy smokes folks, not one of you even put that together did you?
Look. I might not have done the fire truck thing (though it is a very interesting idea), but I must say that I respect that they are doing something. Try re-reading Matthew 28.
First, Jesus has the authority to issue instructions. Second, he issues them. Third, He says “GO” and make disciples. He does not say “sit and wait” to make disciples. Fourth, the Lord makes it clear that we have a part in what is done. The work is God’s, but He sends us into the fields to work them. Fifth, He tells us to teach; more action. Sixth, He makes it clear that He is not leaving us to our own devices, but rather He will be with us as we labor in the fields that He owns, has planted, and will harvest. Please note the references to Matthew 9.
We have heard a lot of innuendo and anecdotes about how outreach doesn’t work. There seems to be a lot of experts on what does not work on this blog, but none that are saying that they are actively following Jesus’ instructions “GO” (with the exception of the firetruck). The truth is that some things don’t work and some things do. When something is done with prayerful thought and consideration, when the focus is Christ driven, and when we permit the Holy Spirit to work, God brings people to faith. And yes, that one soul that Rev. Giese mentions is worth the effort. We are told that there is great rejoicing in heaven when one of the lost comes to faith. Please, don’t make the same mistakes that Ablaze is making by focusing upon numbers.
Now is there anything wrong with the fire truck. If you answer truthfully, you’ll say “No”. So long as no one has the crazy idea that the truck itself is somehow doing the work that Jesus has given us.
Is it gimmicky? Yes, absolutely. So what. Every program intended to appeal to outsiders is gimmicky –from that nursery the church has hoping to appeal to young people with kids to the Christmas tree lot run by the men’s group. And if I did not mention your churches gimmick think for a moment and you’ll realize that you’ve got at least one.
The only issue is that the truck might somehow become the center of attention in place of Christ. There, we need to trust this pastor, our Lutheran theology, our Lutheran education, and most importantly trust God that He will protect His Church. After all, when it is said and done, God will either use this and bless it or He will not. If He does not, you’ll never hear about the fire truck again. If He does, you might be seeing a lot of them. In your zeal for the Lord, don’t box Him in or degrade what He and He alone is capable of doing.
Pr. M’art
Put a fireman’s hat on Jesus. He rescues us from Ablaze.
In general, I agree about the Ablaze movement. As far as I can tell from what I’ve seen and heard at church, it’s just an advertising gimmick. Blech.
However, Pastor Giese is a very good pastor and evangelist. He is a very intelligent man, who knows the scripture very well. His sermons and sunday school lessons are interesting and educational, and he always communicates a clear gospel message. He is one of the best preachers I have ever heard (and I’ve heard plenty). He does not try to act cool or hip or fun in order to get attention. His jokes are tasteful and natural, not forced.
If the fire truck is treated as an end in itself – stick the fire truck out front and people will come to church! – then there’s a problem. The fire truck is not an evangelist. But it CAN be effectively used as a conversation starter, as a billboard, as a way to get some attention. I trust Pastor Giese to take advantage of the opportunities it offers in a responsible, scriptural manner.
If you object to the idea of using a fire truck as an evangelical tool – fine, you have a right to an opinion – and I can see your point. But please don’t mock Pastor Giese and critique his motives or his faith when you don’t even know the man.